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Bad Times
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Rabbit
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Bad Times Reply with quote

I hesitate to start this thread, but feel as an older person that I should. That I have a duty to, almost.

I lived through the Recession of 1982. My grandparents, whom I was very close to, survived the Great Depression. While 1982 wasn't _that_ bad, I do recall 20% home mortgage rates, credit-card rates pushing 30%, inflation (if memory serves) somewhere around 18%, and (local to my area) an unemployment rate of 20-22%.

I also remember a large number of young people my own age (I was 21 in 1982) killing themselves either directly through suicide or indirectly via drugs, fast cars and insane thrillseeking because they lost all hope in the future.

Economic downturns are ugly on more levels than most people realize, and it's quite possible that we may be on the brink of a major one. If so, jobs will be lost, savings will be wiped out, and suddenly that which one could once easily afford will be out of reach. It's not a pleasant experience; I saw and experienced things during that era that I never want to go through again. Death and poverty are _ugly_.

The key to sanity and survival, in my opinion, lies in understanding what's really important in this world. In wisdom, in other words, instead of material things. My grandparents often spoke of the Depression as a wretched time in one breath, then in the next spoke of the wonderful displays of loyalty and affection they witnessed. They'd remember the poverty, then smile and speak of how nice it was to gather together and sing all night long when they couldn't afford a radio.

I found pretty much the same thing to be true in 1982. The lessons I learned then have proven far more valuable to me than the earnings I lost. I learned that true wealth isn't measured in dollars, but rather in friendship and human kindness. I learned that today's high-and-mighty just might be tomorrow's homeless, and me along with them. I learned that persistence pays off, that sometimes one must accept humiliation in the name of survival, and that no one is responsible for taking care of me except for myself. People _die_ in recessions, most of them killed by hopelessness. I didn't die, and that which failed to kill me did in fact in this case make me far, far stronger.

If things do indeed go south economically in a major way (and the jury is still very much out on this; with any luck my posting here will prove to be a false alarm), those who make and value friends and lead a rich inner life will be those who are least scarred, and those who are most wrapped up in physical possessions and status symbols will suffer the most. They will have nothing in their lives to cushion the financial blows. Remember that life's joy really has very little to do with how many possessions you have. Rather, the important thing is how happy you are, and how much love and friendship there is in your life. As trite as it sounds, there really _are_ the true riches.

Most people will tell you that the best way to prepare for a recession is to build up your bank account and shed debt. This is indeed good, sound advice. But the _best_ way to prepare, judging from my own experience, is to make more friends and spend more time with them. There is more than one kind of wealth, after all, and the financial markets don't regulate the more vital ones. A two-dollar deck of cards and a friend to enjoy them with are treasures beyond price. It's the hard times that teach this lesson best.

On another front...

I have carefully and deliberately kept this posting non-political. In my own personal view, there's more blame to go around for the current uncertainty in our economic future than one can shake a stick at, and most of it is not in the hands of politicians of either party. So, let's spare each other yet another vindictive, angry political debate, one that no one can win and which can only damage the fellowship and relationships that are the best antidote for bad times and the most important element even of good times.

Please?

Just this once?
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Leonato
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sound advice, all of it!

You make several good solid points. And I too believe, that eventually, this nation (as well as most likely the world) will see another such 'great depression'. I don't know (and frankly don't care) which political head or party will share most of the blame for it... it is just gonna eventually happen.

It does, as you point out, underline what is valuable and what is not. Friends, and close loving family, are truly the greatest riches of all. Those who place their faith in tangible things, will go down with said tangible things. Those who place their faith in family, friends, love, and wisdom, those are the ones who can survive anything. Even another 'great depression'.

I would like to focus a small bit though, on the last part, wisdom and knowledge. You greyfurs remember such things as the economic downturn of 1982, I was only 1 year old at the time. There are scant few who remember the 'great depression'. Yet here my generation is, on the verge of the 21st century, and by and large 'GenX' has bout into the hype. And bought into the 'stuff that money can buy', especially our parents money. We have been lied to by the generations before us, and each other. Led into the belief that 'all that depression stuff is in the past, it will never happen again'. When anyone with open eyes can see that all -things- are temporary, even great national success and prosperity.

I must simply add my thanks to you Rabbit, you nailed it, and this is a topic worthy of discussion. A thread for older furs to share some time-honored wisdom with a younger generation (both my own, and the generation after me).

My two cents boils down to, remember what is valuable, and never dis-count the advantage of being smart. If one learns how to do certain things, and certain trades, you can provide for your family. One way or another, the ability to -do-, and the knowledge to -do-, wins out in the end. From simple things like farming, to trades like homebuilding, or home-cooking =^.^= (Home baking from scratch (flour+water left in window sill to catch yeast spores basic) is one of my favorites)... Skills, they will serve ya well. I am thankful to have the skill-set that I do, and I'm always looking for new ones.

PF's resident Lynx/Domestic Reader/DJ,
Leonato

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Arctic_Mutt
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Bad Times Reply with quote

Rabbit wrote:

Most people will tell you that the best way to prepare for a recession is to build up your bank account and shed debt. This is indeed good, sound advice. But the _best_ way to prepare, judging from my own experience, is to make more friends and spend more time with them.


Here here -- and unlike so many of our other diversions, Friends are cheap Very Happy

The world is going through some trying times, with shaky economics, war and instability, as well as the spectre of environmental degradation.

But we must hope for the best - every era has it's challenges. What counts is how we respond to them.

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Syrius
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I can perfectly live without the Interweb or Plasma TVs, no amount of family love can beat a roof over my head to protect us from the weather. Of course, I'm talking about an extreme, so I agree with the original poster's point of view.

(Waiting for Vee's comment in 3... 2... 1... )

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Kaisyu
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Bad Times Reply with quote

Rabbit wrote:
I hesitate to start this thread......
I hate to be picky but can you sum it up for me that is way too much for me to read X_X oh btw I was born in 1983 !!! O.O
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Sigurd Volsung
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My parents got lucky with the economic down turn in the 80's and came out relatively unscathed, dad had enough seniority at the school district so he couldn't be fired, and my mother had just gotten a job where she was the only one in a vital position so she couldn't be touched. My wife's family on the other paw got screwed, the business they started went under about a year later do to businesses cutting back on advertising, and they ended up having to steal for food. The politics of the day caused unfair burdens on middle income people and while we survived it hurt a lot of people.

Patty and I are lucky enough to be in the same position my parents were in in the 80's and are protected from losing out jobs, and lucky enough to have a low interest fixed rate mortgage. We just started saving money to allow Patty to take time off from work when we have a kid. We're in a good position to ride out the next economic storm.

I hope that all of you out there can get in similar positions so that you won't have your backs against the fiscal wall.

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Solis
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Bad Times Reply with quote

Kaisyu wrote:
I hate to be picky but can you sum it up for me that is way too much for me to read X_X oh btw I was born in 1983 !!! O.O


Kaisyu, can you please not quote the entire article? Especially if all you're doing is adding a sentence. Thanks.

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Hortmage
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sheesh, rabbit, you make me feel positively ancient (I'm a year older than you). Wink

I was just starting out with job and family in the mid 80s. I had just finished my Master's degree, surviving on a $4500/yr research assistantship, and got a half-time job that paid $9000/yr. I had no qualms about working in a local college cafeteria to make ends meet. Didn't particularly like it, but I did it because I needed to.

I think being willing to do whatever it takes to keep yourself and your family fed is your primary responsibility. Even if has nothing to do with your major, or your interests. I keep reading about the financial disasters of one of our major authors on this forum, and I'm heartened that he keeps plugging away. (I think he might have been better off taking a job at Wally World while he was waiting for one of his interviews to pan out, but that's not my place to suggest to him).

Stay flexible, is the best advice I can give.

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Siros
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rabbit's story reminds me of a book I read recently called Man's search for meaning by Frankl. You should like to take a look at it. The similarities are interesting.
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CJ_Krythos
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Bad Times Reply with quote

Arctic_Mutt wrote:

Here here -- and unlike so many of our other diversions, Friends are cheap Very Happy


Not unless those freinds like to beg money off ya Wink got my fair share of those. but then again, those really cant be considered friends when it comes down to it.

I will say that I found when me and my family went up to spend a week on lake erie, that the cabin we were in had little to no amenities aside from a stove, electric, and furniture to sit and sleep on. We all thought my dad would spend all his time fussing and trying his best to beg time off the neighbor's computer, but he didnt. Actually, I enjoyed some of the best memories of my life that Ive had with my father during that week. We had a few dozen games of Monopoly and Clue, plenty of walks on the beach making sandcastles and such, and lots of splashing around in the water. I wish that I could have the time to go do that again, but work hasnt given me much of an opportunity. The only vacation time I got goes straight to getting me off for Anthrocon.

I do worry what will happen when the economy crumbles again, but I dont let it get to me. I was once told by someone that "life is short, so dont concern yourself with worrying too much over the future" I realize now that you can plan all you like for bad times, but the most you can do is slow those bad things down. The best way to get past bad times isnt to concern yourself with how horrible they are, but to spend that time concerning yourself with the positive notes. the special wonderful memories you will have for the rest of your life.

CJ

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Syrius
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Bad Times Reply with quote

CJ_Krythos wrote:

"life is short, so dont concern yourself with worrying too much over the future" I realize now that you can plan all you like for bad times, but the most you can do is slow those bad things down.


Call me a money-grubber, but life can be shorter if you don't worry enough about the future.

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Arctic_Mutt
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Bad Times Reply with quote

Syrius wrote:
CJ_Krythos wrote:

"life is short, so dont concern yourself with worrying too much over the future" I realize now that you can plan all you like for bad times, but the most you can do is slow those bad things down.


Call me a money-grubber, but life can be shorter if you don't worry enough about the future.


Yesh... maybe being in the Scouts and army ingrained the "Be Prepared" attitude in me - cuz whenever I see friends "living for the moment" and spending money like drunken sailors, bad things inevitably follow.

Personally I like a nice big safety net--- but that's how I'm wired. But I don't necessarily think economic doom and gloom is ahead (unless your in one of those subprime mortgages).. the media likes to blow things out of proportion

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Rabbit
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to "bump" this thread, because I fear that my forecasts are coming true. Time to get prepared, folks. Make a new friend today!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good call Rabbit - the news seems to be getting worse all the time. Maybe I was wrong to say this was just media hype earlier - it might actually be the "real deal" for once.

Hold on to your hats, everyone, and good luck.

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Cookie
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what makes bad times worse is the inevitable crime we'll see. Especially in an area like where I live (Baton Rouge) there is about as much love and togetherness in the city as there is sense in war.

In some areas of the country, I'm certain people will pull together. But not my area, theft, murder and such things will control the days. They almost already do.

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