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French and Dutch Reject Europe's First Constitution
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Will This Sink The EU Constitution?
Yup. It ain't goin' anywhere now.
37%
 37%  [ 9 ]
No! When has anyone cared what the French bloody well think?
41%
 41%  [ 10 ]
MY TOES ARE COLD! >_<
20%
 20%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 24

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Joshua Fox
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 7:57 pm    Post subject: French and Dutch Reject Europe's First Constitution Reply with quote

That's right, the French, who proudly proclaim to have started the notion of European Integration some fifty years ago, have rejected the EU Constitution in referendum.

***

PARIS — French voters rejected the European Union's first constitution Sunday, a stinging repudiation of President Jacques Chirac's leadership and the ambitious, decades-long effort to further unite the continent.

Chirac, who had urged voters to approve the charter, announced the result in a brief, televised address. He said the process of ratifying the treaty would continue in other EU countries.

"It is your sovereign decision, and I take note," Chirac said. "Make no mistake, France's decision inevitably creates a difficult context for the defense of our interests in Europe."

With nearly 96 percent of votes counted, "no" had 55.5 percent, with only 44.5 percent for "yes," the Interior Ministry said.

The treaty's rejection in a bitterly contested referendum in France — the architect of the European project — could set the continent's plans back by years and amounts to a personal humiliation for the veteran French leader.

Treaty opponents chanting "We won!" gathered at Paris' Place de la Bastille, a symbol of rebellion where angry crowds in 1789 stormed the prison and sparked the French Revolution. Cars blared their horns and "no" campaigners thrust their arms into the air.

"This is a great victory," said Fabrice Savel, 38, from the working-class suburb of Aubervilliers. He was distributing posters that read: "Non to a free-market Europe."

EU leaders in Brussels, Belgium, vowed to continue their effort to have the constitution approved.

All 25 EU members must ratify the text for it to take effect as planned by Nov. 1, 2006. Nine already have done so: Austria, Hungary, Italy, Germany, Greece, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain.

The Dutch vote Wednesday, with polls showing opposition to the constitution there running at about 60 percent. On Friday, the constitution's main architect, former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing, said countries that reject the treaty will be asked to vote again.

France was the first "no" — even though it was a founder member of what over 50 years has grown into the EU.

"There is no more constitution," said Philippe de Villiers, a leading opponent. "It is necessary to reconstruct Europe on other foundations that don't currently exist."

De Villiers called on Chirac to resign — something the French leader had said he would not do — and called for parliament to be dissolved.

Jean-Marie Le Pen, the extreme-right leader who campaigned vigorously for the constitution's defeat, also called for Chirac's resignation.

Chirac "wanted to gamble ... and he has lost," Le Pen said.

The French vote came three days before the charter faces another hostile reception in the Netherlands.

Chirac and European leaders have said there was no fallback plan in the event of a French rejection. But many French voters did not believe that. Many, especially on the left, hoped their "no" vote would force the EU back to the drawing board and improve the 448-clause document. In the meantime, "no" voters expected the EU to continue functioning under existing treaties.

"I voted 'no' because the text is very difficult to understand. Also, I'm afraid for democracy. The way the EU functions is very opaque. Many people there are not directly elected," said Emmanuel Zelez, 32, a film editor.

The outcome caused immediate disarray, with political leaders outside France divided on the significance of the French vote.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said "the result raises profound questions for all of us about the future direction of Europe."

But the European Union's industry commissioner, Guenther Verheugen, said the vote was not a catastrophe and that the situation should not be over dramatized.

"Integration will continue," Verheugen said.

Chirac had waged an all-out campaign to persuade nearly 42 million sharply divided voters to approve the charter. But the electorate was in rebellious mood, with unemployment running at 10 percent and wide unease about the direction Europe is taking.

Turnout was close to 70 percent — testifying to the passions that the treaty and the debate surrounding it aroused.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the head of Chirac's ruling Union for a Popular Movement and a leading campaigner for the "yes" camp, called Sunday's defeat "a major political event."

Looking ahead to France's next general elections in 2007, Sarkozy said: "We must decide on an innovative, courageous and ambitious plan of action."

Chirac's popularity ratings have plummeted in recent weeks, and in his television address, the president said he would announce "my decisions concerning the government and its priorities" in coming days.

Although Chirac argued that the constitution would streamline EU decision-making and make the bloc more accessible to its 450 million citizens, opponents feared it would strip France of its sovereignty and generous social system and trigger an influx of cheap labor. On the left, opponents feared that the treaty would open the EU to unfettered free-market capitalism, trampling on workers rights.

Nine nations — Austria, Hungary, Italy, Germany, Greece, Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain — already have ratified it.

A "yes," coupled with another by the Dutch, could have given the constitution potentially unstoppable momentum.

In the end, though, the French — torn between wanting to remain one of the engines of an increasingly competitive Europe yet fiercely protective of the generous social welfare benefits they enjoy — stuck with their perceptions that the charter posed another threat to their cherished way of life.

"If you look at every sentence, every turn of phrase, practically every article has a mention of [financial] markets," Anne-Marie Latremoliere, a 57-year-old graphic designer, said after casting a "no" ballot at a polling station near the Bastille.

"We want Europe to be a beautiful place," she said, "and this is certainly not it."

***

This whole business actually concerns a lot more folks than appear to be actively concerned with it, including over in the States.

So what sayest thou about this peculiar issue?

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Last edited by Joshua Fox on Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Nite
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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt it. I think the very most it might do is bring proposal for change to it.

France is only a fraction of Europe... If Rhode Island suddenly rejected the United States constitution, would the other 49 states follow?
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nite wrote:
I doubt it. I think the very most it might do is bring proposal for change to it.

France is only a fraction of Europe... If Rhode Island suddenly rejected the United States constitution, would the other 49 states follow?

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The constitution only goes into effect once all members accept it. Accepting it and later trying to reject it again is something completely different.

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the proposed European Constitution is a bureaucratic monster from the get-go, so I'd hope 'most any sensible folk would reject it. I mean, compare and contrast this 487-page "document" (that's a book to me) with the US Constiution, even with amendments, which has worked reasonably well for over 200 years. The level of detail in the European document is unbelieveable.
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Nameless
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the other hand, the current status is much worse. There are a lot of things in there that should not really be part of a constitution, but that is another problem. The situation is very similar here in Austria. Our "constitution" contains a lot of stuff that shouldn't be there at all. Basically whenever a law was repealed by the Supreme Court because it was unconstitutional, it was added to the constitution (so that the Supreme Court couldn't declare it "unconstitutional") rather than ammended so that it was constitutional. And most governments since the 2nd World War did have the nessesary majority to put things into the constitution.

Same here, a lot of stuff was added because one of the countries would not have accepted the constitution otherwise.

On the other hand, I don't see that the US Constitution has worked really well. The government routinely ignores the limits set by the constitution and congress enacts laws that violate the spirit if not the letter of the constitution.
Any constitution works, even something as simple as "Might is Right.. I have yet to see one that works well.

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Rozy
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

personally i dont care what the french think but i have to choose that it isnt going anywhere, you see the french have a lot more control in the UN than you think so if anything doesnt get past them then it wont get passed kinda like the turkey thing at the beginning of the anti-terrorist, US wanted to use turkey terrority as a base so they can attack iraq from three sides but it didnt happen because turkey wanted into the UN so badly it had to stay on the french good side
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cateagle wrote:
Well, the proposed European Constitution is a bureaucratic monster from the get-go, so I'd hope 'most any sensible folk would reject it. I mean, compare and contrast this 487-page "document" (that's a book to me) with the US Constiution, even with amendments, which has worked reasonably well for over 200 years. The level of detail in the European document is unbelieveable.


Well, as you have pointed out yourself, your constition was made 200 years ago. Politics and economics where a tad more simple back then.

In any case, I personally really don't care, especially about anything regarding the French... except for DIsneyland Paris of course Wink

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Ah, the French! Reply with quote

I lived there for a year in college, and I have a real appreciation for the French PEOPLE! The French government, of course, is a joke even to them, so I don't take it too seriously.

As one leader there said, "How can you govern a country that has 600 different kinds of cheese?"

But I think they have a pretty healthy attitude toward government as a whole. Unfortunately, I think the result is that when someone gets elected, they realize they're marginalized, and behave that way.

Which reminds me...time to get some gruyere and ementhaler cheese, find the cheapest bottle of white wine, and make some of my killer fondue. Same recipe as used in Les Armures in Geneva.

The only problem is getting cheap enough wine. We used to pay 80 cents per bottle for it, and 60 cents of that was deposit on the bottle. "Uh...was last Thursday a good vintage?" Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the universe didn't cave in on itself when England didn't join the EU. But, who cares about us crumpet punchers eh? XD I think there are going to be quite a few countries that wont be too happy about doing what everyone else says. That's just general human nature.
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well its seems for once the french have done somthing right.... IMO....

im not a EU fan..... and i agrre with Sci, its not gonna change much eruope i think can not be united we tryd that... look what happened then... and i know you dont want to go there again

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually the EU "Constitution" is in all reality more of a treaty than a real constitution, also according to most analysts it was rejected more as a protest to the government of President Jacque Chirac. There were also fears of worsening economic situations, and expansion to include Turkey. There was no real rational debate on the what it meant to the common man in the street, any conversation amounted to a political pundent telling you to vote yes with out really adressing concerens.

Truthfully I'm a huge fan of the EU and I hope it coaleces (bad spelling no biscuit) into a force equal in strength to the US and I'm a resident of the good ol' US of A. There needs to be something to balance out the international juggernaut.

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aryeon
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AH WAIT AND SEE WHAT WE DUTCH ARE GOING TO DO Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

it is probbebly going to be a big no!
and i think it is becouse every thing is going to fast now for the
moost eurepian poeple.
a mega expansion to the east and up coming expantion to the south.
and non of these new countrys have profen them self capebol
to folow the present set of rulles.
so its al going to fast, gife the new countrys the time to show that thee
are as europian as the rest and than make a true constitution (prev. one that
poeple understand whith out a lawer degree). Confused

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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Ah, the French! Reply with quote

mrblanche wrote:
Which reminds me...time to get some gruyere and ementhaler cheese, find the cheapest bottle of white wine, and make some of my killer fondue. Same recipe as used in Les Armures in Geneva.


Are you sure you where in the right country, because you're talking about swiss stuff here...? Wink

Anyway the constitution had many flaws, if it wasn't for the chance it also ment for all those who wanted to have some reliable regulations in the EU, it's not a total fiasco. There was way too much neoliberal crap it it, if you ask me. But now it will take years before they will come up with a acceptable substitute and that's not really going to be a political joyride either. Personally I think it would have simplified lots of the overregulated and top-heavy procedures in the EU.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And now the Netherlands have followed suite:

***

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands — Dutch voters worried about social benefits and immigration overwhelmingly rejected the European Union constitution Wednesday in what could be a knockout blow for a charter meant to create a power rivaling the United States.

With nearly all votes counted, the charter lost 62 percent to 38 percent, an even worse defeat than the 55 percent "no" vote delivered in a French referendum Sunday.

"The Dutch people have spoken tonight. It is a clear result. Naturally I am very disappointed," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende said in conceding defeat in his campaign for ratification.

The charter was designed to provide such trappings of statehood as a flag, a president and an anthem for what has largely been an economic bloc, while creating a more integrated political entity of 450 million people with a bigger economy than America's.

But the idea has proved increasingly polarizing, with opponents worrying about loss of national control and identity to a stronger, unaccountable EU bureaucracy at the heart of a superstate. There also is anxiety about mostly Muslim Turkey possibly becoming an EU member.

Nine EU states have ratified, but the charter needs approval from all 25 states to take effect in late 2006, and the "no" vote in both France and the Netherlands — founding members of the bloc — was a clear message that European integration has gone awry.

"We must acknowledge that many Europeans doubt that Europe is able to answer the urgent questions of the moment," said German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, leader of the EU's richest nation and a strong proponent of the charter. "The crisis surrounding the ratification of the European constitution must not become Europe's general crisis."

French President Jacques Chirac, whose support for the constitution was repudiated by his people, said the vote "shows strong expectations, questions and concerns about the development of the European project."

Although the referendum was consultative, the high turnout and the decisive margin left no room for the Dutch parliament to turn its back on the people's verdict. The parliament meets Thursday to discuss the results.

Some 62 percent of Dutch voters turned out, far exceeding expectations in a reflection of the heated debate in recent days.

Dutch liberals worried a more united EU could weaken the country's liberal social policies, such as tolerating marijuana use, prostitution and euthanasia. Conservatives feared losing control of immigration rules that have been tightened to stem an influx from Muslim countries amid ethnic clashes.

Geert Wilders, a prominent opponent who argued that the charter would open the Netherlands to more migrants and lead to Turkey joining the EU, said voters were angry about "the country's identity slowly being eaten away."

"I'm incredibly happy that the Dutch voter has rubbed their noses in it," said Wilders, referring to the governing elite.

It was the first chance the Dutch public had to rule on their country's deepening involvement in Europe, since the process had never been an issue in any domestic election. The result was not only a rejection of the EU's expanding power over their daily lives but also a repudiation of the politicians who many voters believe are sacrificing the Dutch identity.

"I think it's the end of the story now that two important countries have said no," said Wouter Bos, the Dutch opposition leader who joined Balkenende in supporting the charter.

Asked about the vote, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the constitution was a matter for the Europeans.

"The United States is committed to a Europe that is united and strong, and one that works in partnership with us to address our common challenges. We've done that in the past, and we want to do that as we move forward in the future," McClellan said.

At EU headquarters in Brussels, Belgium, EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso urged member governments not to make any hasty judgments about the ratification process and wait for the bloc's mid-June summit to assess the constitution's situation.

"We have a serious problem, but we must continue our work," Barroso said.

German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said EU leaders needed to analyze what went wrong, but said they should press on. "This is not the end of the process for the constitution and not at all the end of European integration," he said.

Early in the day, Balkenende had said he was optimistic the Dutch would defy the pollsters and vote on the merits of the constitution rather than their general feeling of malaise.

"The question is: Do we want to have progress today or do we choose a standstill, and for me the choice is obvious," he said.

But voters marking paper ballots with red pencils or pushing electronic buttons clearly had a different view.

At an Amsterdam school, where about a dozen people waited to vote, a reporter had difficulty finding anyone in favor of the constitution. One said the charter would bolster Europe: "I think it's a good thing if there's a strong Europe," said Jaena Padberg. "It's good that our rights will be secured."

Others were clearly leery of the constitution. They feared that the Netherlands, a nation of 16 million people, would be overwhelmed by a European superstate even though the Dutch pay more per capita than any other country into the collective EU kitty.

Nicolas Ilaria, an immigrant from Suriname, said he was voting no. "In principle, I'm against bureaucracy and I don't believe everything is working well now," he said.

Like many others, Ilaria voiced an underlying mistrust of Dutch politicians. "The government is not telling the truth about what is in the treaty," he said.

"Things are going too fast," said Maarten Pijnenburg, in the "no" camp. "There's not enough control over the power of European politicians" under the new constitution.

***

Same difference? Razz

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Sigurd Volsung
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As many people in the "NO" campaign said, don't give us a two inch thick constitution and not tell us what it really means. The average citizens of Europe have had little if anything to say about what happens with the EU and this is their way of saying, "Hold on a minute, gives more of say or things stop now."

Truthfully I don't think this is going to scupper the EU, but it will slow it down and hopefully create changes that will make the average citizen more comfortable.

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