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Thoughts on faith, religion, etc.
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WhiteStorm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lucius_Vane wrote:

Only the person performing the act can truly know.


Isn't claiming it an objective "good" suggesting knowledge?

Lucius_Vane wrote:

How does not being able to judge whether a specific action is done for oneself or for the group change the idea that the former is evil and the latter is good? I think you might be misinterpreting my answers.


"For the group" is subjective isn't it? The group might not want the changes or find them to be in their best interests (of course their views would be more varied than that.)
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Lucius_Vane
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhiteStorm wrote:
Isn't claiming it an objective "good" suggesting knowledge?

Yes, which is why only the person performing the action is really in any position to comment on it. We can't label others actions as good or evil, only right and wrong.

WhiteStorm wrote:
"For the group" is subjective isn't it? The group might not want the changes or find them to be in their best interests (of course their views would be more varied than that.)

No, it's objective. It doesn't matter if they want it or not, that falls under right and wrong. All that matters in determining good and evil is intent.

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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howellfan wrote:
I do, though, respectfully but strongly disagree with your opinion here. I will confess first off, though, that I am disagreeing with your opinion as I understand it. I am not entirely certain I am clear on the view you are arguing. Would you agree, for example, with the following working definition of 'religion', which I am working from:

'[Religion] is a set of beliefs that explain what life is all about, who we are, and the most important things human beings should spend their time doing....It contains a master narrative, an account about the meaning of life, along with a recommendation for how to live based on that account of things.' (Timothy Keller;'The Reason For God')


First of all, no harm done by the comment. Water under the bridge, and apology certainly accepted.

Secondly, I don't disagree with all parts of that definition, but I do disagree with certain parts of it. My faith, for instance, does not include a series of rules about 'what human beings should spend their time doing'. It specifically does not include that, based on the principle that we have all been given free will by the Gods. It defies the purpose of this gift for the Gods to then dictate what we must and must not do. We have to decide for ourselves what to do, based on the world as it is changing around us. Therefore, there is no divine mandate. We can pray, but there is a general concensus that while we may do so, we can't expect and we certainly can't -demand- that the Gods pay attention...

...they have bigger fish to fry than to listen to the ramblings of a needy believer...

There is no religious law. No divine booms of 'you must do this or else!!' across the sky. Mortals may defy the Gods and in fact may do so and get away with it quite successfully if they have the strength and moral courage to do so. We are all individuals, and we are first and foremost obligated towards ourselves...not higher beings.

Regarding the master narrative, there -is- one of sorts...but it is not akin to the Bible, Baghavad Gita or Koran or similiar holy scripture in having divine origins or mandate. Our stories are first and foremost convoluted. Each story is straightforward, but with many layers of understanding once you start deciphring them. They were also, specifically, written about a thousand years ago or more, in a world that looked vastly different than now, and since our Gods have the capacity to change and even to die(both illustrated in those stories) they would no doubt have changed in the meantime as well. Meaning the way they are worshipped should change. The faith has changed as well. The old ways are not the old ways. They are the new ways INSPIRED by the old ways...

I refuse the term 'Neopagan'. I am not neo-anything. I am a follower of the old ways...which have changed and evolved over time to what they are today.

There is also no account of how to live the good life in our stories. There are -several- accounts of how OTHERS lived good lives, but they are not meant to be taken as models to be followed blindly. Even the heroes made mistakes. Even the GODS make mistakes...(if not, humanity has to be an attempt at divine wit).

I think part of the difference here...comes with the very notion of what religion is. What you are advocating is a potentially very private, but still highly dogmatic line of thinking and some faiths...like mine...reject dogma as the death of personal belief. Dogma by definition means telling someone 'this is what you must do and how you must believe or you're not doing it right'.

There are faiths that do not follow this tennet. I think that is why we disagree. Your definition of religion is for a faith in a far more traditional sense than mine...which is fair enough. It's just a difference of perspective really.

But I hope this makes some things clearer. When I open my eyes in the morning and look at the world around me, I see my gods in all their splendor. When a Christian does the same, he may see HIS God in all His splendor. And I don't see that as being mutually exclusive.

I often say that while I am a dyed-in-the-wool polytheist and proud of it, I don't deny the existence of the semitic God. I simply deny His monopoly on salvation and His omnipresence/omnipotence. I do, however, acknowledge that He's got a far better Public Relations department than my Gods. That does not make him bigger or greater in my world, and I'd never bow my knee to him.

But I do not exclude that he may be there -too-.

I don't know if that makes things any clearer...or if it just muddles things further.
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Styx
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been keeping away from this disscusion mainly because my core feelings on religeon would piss just about everyone off and I have no desire to do so but I saw this.
Aslaug wrote:
I refuse the term 'Neopagan'. I am not neo-anything. I am a follower of the old ways...which have changed and evolved over time to what they are today.


And I have to ask isn't that a self contradicting statement?

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Cookie
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that everybody has their own faith, or un-faith.

I don't care what a person believes in, and I will respect their opinions. However, as soon as somebody tries to push a belief on me while claiming that mine is "wrong and EVIL!!!", is when I get mad and lose any respect for the person.

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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styx wrote:
And I have to ask isn't that a self contradicting statement?


Possibly, Styx...I can't deny that linguistically it looks like an odd statement but 'neo' is a term that has certain connotations I want to avoid...
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Syrius
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why? Because there is no spoon?

*Runs off to hide*

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Howellfan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Aslaug wrote:First of all, no harm done by the comment. Water under the bridge, and apology certainly accepted.


*Phew* Smile

Quote:
Regarding the master narrative, there -is- one of sorts...but it is not akin to the Bible, Baghavad Gita or Koran or similiar holy scripture in having divine origins or mandate.


I think you misunderstand his meaning here(Then again, perhaps not?). The second part of his description came at the end of an example - a secular materialist. Here in full:

["For example, some think this material world is all there is, that we are here by accident and when we die we just rot, and therefore the important thing is to choose to do what makes you happy and not let others impose their beliefs on you. Notice that though this is not an explicit, "organized" religion, it contains a master narrative, an account about the meaning of life along with a recommendation for how to live based on that account of things.

Some call this a "worldview" while others call it a "narrative identity". In either case it is a set of faith assumptions about the nature of things. It is an implicit religion. Broadly understood, faith in some view of the the world and human nature informs everyone's life. Everyone lives and operates out of some narrative identity, whether it is thought out and reflected upon or not. All who say "you ought to do this" or "you shouldn't do that" reason out of such an implicit moral and religious position."]

In other words, he is speaking of personal truth, not formalized religion.

Now, does that clarify where I'm standing with my arguments, or have _I_ only muddled things further? Razz
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Sigurd Volsung
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm probably closer to being what you'd call a neo-pagan than Aslaug but I too do not apply the term to myself because of the connotations associated with it. For me the term neo-pagan makes me think of what my wife and I term fluffy bunny pagans, the kind who believe that everyone should get along as nature intended. My wife and I laugh at that idea, nature shows her wrath all the time: Katrina, the Boxing Day Tsunami, the huge earthquake in China a couple months ago to name but a few of the larger incidents.

Aslaug and I worship the same Gods, but I have added some traditions from other cultures so we don't consider ourselves to be of the exact same faith.

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