Planetfurry BBS Forum Index Planetfurry BBS
Forums for Planetfurry Site Members and more
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   DonateDonate   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Thoughts on faith, religion, etc.
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Planetfurry BBS Forum Index -> Dead Threads
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Howellfan
Registered User


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: Thoughts on faith, religion, etc. Reply with quote

Fealt like starting this thread after reading another that got sidetracked onto the subject but really wasn't the place for it. So I confess, part of it's an excuse to get my two cents in...later(Have to be at work in an hour - I have quite a few thoughts[who doesn't]on the subject myself - and want to see other's thoughts first anyway.). Razz

Anyway, just a discussion thread for this topic. I know threads like this can easily go south, but I'm optimistic enough to believe this is a more thoughtful and civil group than the average messageboard. Cool

So - have at it. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Kaisyu
Registered User


Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 48
Location: In My Den

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Thoughts on faith, religion, etc. Reply with quote

Howellfan wrote:
Fealt like starting this thread after reading another that got sidetracked onto the subject but really wasn't the place for it. So I confess, part of it's an excuse to get my two cents in...later(Have to be at work in an hour - I have quite a few thoughts[who doesn't]on the subject myself - and want to see other's thoughts first anyway.). Razz

Anyway, just a discussion thread for this topic. I know threads like this can easily go south, but I'm optimistic enough to believe this is a more thoughtful and civil group than the average messageboard. Cool

So - have at it. Smile
What are you trying to get info about ?
_________________
I use trillian messager btw so you have to add me manually.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger Skype Name
Howellfan
Registered User


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a general discussion thread on faith, religion, etc. The good, the bad, the ugly, whatever.

If that's too broad, hmmm....how a bout a couple questions to kick things off:

Is there an essential difference, pragmatically speaking, in where the thoughts and actions of a 'person of principle' come from compared to a 'person of faith'?

Is there an inherent contradiction to decrying religious exclusivity and unique claims to truth, and insistance that followers of different faiths recognize the equality of other's, given the large number of people and cultures that explicitly reject such a cleaim? Could it be argued this is itself judgmental and the imposition of a very specific set of Western values and traditions on traditions that do not share some or all of them?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
WhiteStorm
Registered User


Joined: 03 Jun 2008
Posts: 123
Location: Forever in Winter

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have thoughts about it unless it does something to bother me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Iron_Raptor
Registered User


Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 50
Location: Toronto, Canada, eh?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howellfan I really REALLY hope you know what you're doing, 'cuz right now you're unleashing what could potentially be a massive flame war.

People hold onto their religious beliefs very close to their hearts, and as such, you're quite likely to start a flame war.

As far as religion goes, I'm... more of an agnostic. I believe that there is a higher power out there. But... is it... as Pat Condell so puts in his youtube videos "Desert God of Death" that Christians, Muslims, and Jews worship? I don't know.

_________________
"The history of humanity is like an Endless Waltz, it constantly dances to the three beats of war, peace, and revolution."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
PrincessB
Registered User


Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 3070
Location: south of Nashville, Tn

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mcds job I had as a teen there were two coworkers that I got into religion discussions with many times. Thing was, I'm Christian, the guy was athiest, the other girl was wiccan. You couldn't get much more different in beliefs then the three of us, but I very much enjoyed our religious discussions because it was an equal give and take of information. We never tried to push our beliefs on the others and we always made it clear that we were saying what we THOUGHT, how we saw things to be, we never insisted we were right and everyone else was wrong.

So if all parties are 1)mature 2)listen at least as much as they give (if not more) 3) acknowledge that no one knows for certain, your ideas are just how you feel things are, not undesputable fact and 4) NEVER try to force others to see as you do, accept that others have a right to interpret things differently then you do, then it is entirely possible to have a civil, fun and enlightening disscussion about religion.

I'm not certain I understand your questions (I also woke up not that long ago, lol) but I take the first question to mean is there a difference between a non-faith based person who tries to live a good life and a faith based person trying to do as God wants. (I could be reading your question wrong but thats the basis I got)
I really don't think there is much of a difference. I know that many uber religious people will say that everyone has to believe as they do or they are going to hell (I've heard that personally from folks in other religions) but I don't subscribe to that belief. I entirely believe that there will be people of multiple religions or not so much religious people in heaven. I think that as long as you are living your life to the best of your ability that you have a real chance at heaven. God has said that He will not come till His messege has been spread to the whole world, but just because someone hears the messege doesn't mean they will latch on to it immediatly. If you are doing your best to live a good life, living as a christian should (I say should cuz I'll tell you right now, christians don't always practice what has been taught or even what they themselves may teach) but leave out the praying cuz you don't know if you completly believe that little bit you heard about some guy in the sky watching everything, I don't think that one will be punished for not yet accepting God. I think one will be rewarded for trying to live a good life and do the right things. Basicly making not a whole lot of difference between one living a good life and occasionally kneeling down, and one who just lives a good life.

That come out making sence to everyone? lol

_________________
http://www.bukisa.com/people/AmberBarnes check it out!
http://twitter.com/PrincessBTigres
Girls are like phones. We love to be held, talked too but if you press the wrong button you'll be disconnected!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Howellfan
Registered User


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I really hope you know what you're doing.


I hope so to. Very Happy The key is respecting the right of other intelligent, knowledgeable people of good intent to be - in one's own eyes - dead wrong. Very Happy

PrincessB, I meant with question number 2:It's virtually impossible to derive OUGHT by logical inference. No amount science or logical argument will tell me why I OUGHT to care about the poor, OUGHT to be concerned about the future of humanity, OUGHT to do as I would have done(except when it may be to my advantage - I.E. bolster my reputation, avoid legal trouble and social stigma, etc.). Yet someone driven, and with a firm set of principles and ideals that guide their life - agnostic though they may be - may sacrifice, suffer and even die in the service of dictums which arguably by their very nature ultimately exist apart from scientific evidence or logical deduction. Isn't this called 'faith'?

As for number 1;Are calls for pluralism themselves a value=based judgment? 'Pluralistic ideology is superior to exclusivist;Ideologies lacking this understanding are deficient[or even evil, by some writers lights!].' Is there a self-contradiction here?

Make more sense? *Hands you a cup of coffee.* Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Concolor
Registered User


Joined: 19 Nov 2001
Posts: 832
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, well, as was noted this could be a serious can o' worms. Laughing

Okay, cutting through the fluff, Concolor is a Christian. He takes it pretty seriously. But he's been called a heretic and a blasphemer and worse because his views didn't jibe exactly with those of another person who also considered himself to be a Christian.

As I've explored pretty thoroughly in Gone Wylde, there is very little in the way of a litmus test by which one can be definitively described as Christian or not-Christian. If someone names himself a Christian, it's rather difficult to disprove his claim without gross empirical evidence to the contrary (for example, I don't believe that a drug runner or an assassin could legitimately claim to be a Christian, under any reasonable circumstances). Personally, I don't equate Faith with Religion. I think they often affect one another, but I've known lots (and lots and LOTS) of folks who never let their Religion interfere with their actions. I used to work for one, until he fired me because I wouldn't help him defraud the military. We attended the same church, but I don't think he paid attention. (Yes, he got caught. He did time in federal prison.) But he never considered himself to be anything other than a "good Christian".

So, Howell, to your question, how would the BEHAVIORS of an ethically sound atheist differ from those of a conscientious follower of Christ? (Note, please that I don't say "Christian" ... I feel the distinction is important, given the actions of certain groups who self-identify that way). In most cases, you probably wouldn't be able to see any difference. Ethical behavior is largely cross-cultural, and is held in high regard because it levels the playing field and maximizes the comfort level for all involved. Why do you help someone who needs help? Because what goes around comes around. Why do you treat your business partners with respect, and deal only in truth? Because it is in EVERYONE'S best interest. Sure, there are times when treating others as you'd like to be treated will backfire, but in general that is the most effective way to live. God just codified it for us. But one doesn't REQUIRE a divinely-informed worldview to understand that, although I happen to think it helps. I know that my worldview improved a great deal after I became a Christian at the age of 26, and that it was directly attributable to a deep study of Biblical doctrine. Maybe that wouldn't work with everyone, but it worked with me.

That being said, I make no claims to have "Found the Ultimate Truth". I have found as much truth as I am able to handle at this time. My faith tends toward simplicity as I age. I know God loves me, has extended both mercy and grace to me, and has a plan for my life. I know I owe God my life and love and strength, and that I will find eternal security nowhere else. Beyond that, the details are largely just details. But God, having a well-developed sense of humor, saw fit to give my worldview a serious tumble a couple of years ago, after two decades of what may charitably be described as complacency. It affected me to the point that I felt compelled to resign my position as Deacon in the church we'd been attending for eleven years, and somewhat later to leave that church entirely. I have not since found a new church home in which I feel that I belong, which bothers me. But my personal beliefs at this point in my life no longer line up with the mainstream Christian denominations that are represented in small-town South Carolina.

I don't think of it as a crisis of faith. It is more like an expanded understanding that is not shared by the bulk of my contemporaries. It's something I'm still working on. But then, God is still working on me.

_________________
Oddly enough, my life is based on a true story. (Ashleigh Brilliant)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
PrincessB
Registered User


Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 3070
Location: south of Nashville, Tn

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that non-religious people can still have faith that what they do will help others. Faith is not exclusive to religion though it is most commonly used to mean faith in a higher being.
One can understand what is good by watching life, such as one can see that when someone stole from them it hurt them deeply and in the future never want to hurt someone in the way they were hurt so they have faith that by not doing things such as stealing that they are keeping from causing the same pain to others. And that desire to do right and not harm others can make them go to the extream, be killed rather than kill and hurt others. Which is along the lines of living the best life you know how even if you don't necissarily believe in God.
I helped out at the Nashville Hope center once, organising the clothes closet and prepairing and serving food, not so much because God said "In so much as you have done to the least of these so also have you done to Me" but because I enjoy helping, I believed (because in Ohio I was both giving and receiving from the local hope center, sometimes my only food was from that line of helpers serving food) that my assistance there would help those who came in need and make their day a little brighter. I have always acknowledged that helping in stuff like that was selfish on my part because I enjoy helping so much but it's also good and unselfish towards others. I'm doing what some would say I should, not because I feel like I should but because I enjoy it. To me it doesn't make me any more or less of a religious person and does not have an effect on my faith in God, I'm just enjoying trying to make the lives of others better.

But speaking of nonreligious faith is purely from my observations, not my experience. I am born and raised Seventh Day Adventist Christian, too two SDA Christian parents, and my Dads parents are SDA (not sure how long) and I think my moms parents were SDA and Baptist but I'm not completly certain on that one. So I speak as one who has at times been farther from God than I would like to be, but never completly away from God, so nonreligious stuff is just my observance of those around me.

_________________
http://www.bukisa.com/people/AmberBarnes check it out!
http://twitter.com/PrincessBTigres
Girls are like phones. We love to be held, talked too but if you press the wrong button you'll be disconnected!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Howellfan
Registered User


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh, but why 'ought' I have an interest in everyone's best interest? Because I indirectly benefit? Would this then imply a 'selfish' motive - a-la hawkins' 'selfish gene' hypothesis - for even the most selfless of acts?

What about the statement 'I help others because I feel good doing it.' Does this, too, imply a hidden self-interst?

If right and wrong ARE more(or at least other)than this, we need a wider net. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
PrincessB
Registered User


Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 3070
Location: south of Nashville, Tn

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing says anyone HAS to "do good". The main reasons would be; religion or authority figure tells me to, I want to help others, or I want the good "karma" from it.
Realisticly the last is very selfish, just as my "I help others because it makes me happy to do so" is selfish and I've always acknowledged that.

_________________
http://www.bukisa.com/people/AmberBarnes check it out!
http://twitter.com/PrincessBTigres
Girls are like phones. We love to be held, talked too but if you press the wrong button you'll be disconnected!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Sigurd Volsung
Registered User


Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Posts: 3216
Location: The Twin Cities

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As some of you may know, though many of you probably don't, I worship the old Nordic gods. I have a very different out look on life than many followers of Christ, but that is not entirely due to may beliefs. In some ways I'm very much a left-wing liberal in others a right-wing conservative. I believe strongly in helping the poor, not because it is the morally right thing to do, but because it is the wise thing to do for a stable society. When people hear me say that, they don't expect me to turn around and say we should reintroduce corpral punishment and increase the list of crimes that are punishable by death. It surprises people that while I worship Gods of War I'm not a hawkish person, I believe that war should be the final resort, and that there are better ways to solving the worlds problems even though there are times when I feel certain countries should be blown off the face of the Earth for sheer efficiency of dealing with the problems.

I have had more than my fair share of followers of Christ condemn me to hell or try to convert me (I damn near tossed my brother-in-law off my balcony for just such an offense) and I admit to being a bit prejudiced against them. On the other paw there are some conservative Christians that I get along quite well with.

_________________
Bad moods are like hangovers, they eventually go away. - A. Sigurd Olson
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
solipsis
Registered User


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Galactic Axis

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a Christian.

I believe very strongly in my faith, but then, my faith would probably not be considered mainstream. More to the point, I'm a Christian Mystic, and as some have already mentioned in their own experiences, I too have felt sting from brothers and sisters in Christ who consider me everything but Christian. I believe that the greatest commandments are to love God with all of your heart, soul and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself. After that, it's all open to interpretation of scripture and personal experience.

Nice thread, by the way. Smile

~sol.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Iron_Raptor
Registered User


Joined: 15 Oct 2002
Posts: 50
Location: Toronto, Canada, eh?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a quote suits my beliefs well.

"If there is no heaven with horses, don't look for me there."

_________________
"The history of humanity is like an Endless Waltz, it constantly dances to the three beats of war, peace, and revolution."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Howellfan
Registered User


Joined: 15 Dec 2007
Posts: 188

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue of proselytizing is tricky, especially with evangelicals and those with similiar beliefs.

On the one hand, it is, patently, unfair to insist they give up trying to win people to the faith. Within their system of beliefs that's tantamount to an abandonment of compassion itself. 'If you really cared, you'd shut up and let me burn' if you see my meaning.

On the other hand, as one writer put it proponents are often 'long on truth, and short on compassion.' Or humility, one might add. Keep in mind that in a real sense a believer that lacks humility is a believer that lacks faith. Remember the Amish schoolhouse shooting a while ago? Groups such as them, not the jackasses who protest at military funerals or dance on the graves of AIDS victims, are the TRUE exemplars or extreme, fanatical commitment to the faith. Extremist ideology of any other sort is hypocrisy, even Pharasiacal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Planetfurry BBS Forum Index -> Dead Threads All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group