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My writing may need to go on hold for a while...
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Kinsfire
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2002 11:52 pm    Post subject: My writing may need to go on hold for a while... Reply with quote

Someone whose opinion I trust, since this person has been published before, informed me of something they see as a problem with my writing. (And it wasn't the "I've been published and you haven't" down the nose kind of reaction, either. It was an honest, asked for constructive criticism.)

In this person's opinion, my characters aren't fully realized. An example - Kevin Macomber. Who is he? For that matter, who are any of those characters in Destiny's Children? Can you give me a description of these characters - their motivations, their reason for being? Hell, for that matter, can anyone give me a detailed description of any of my characters? (Ignore Wings, BTW - it was written intentionally to be blurry as to what either of them looks like, or even where they are. Best you can do with that one is skin colors.)

Do my stories need some serious improvement? (For that matter - was Gregg Guydish a hell of a lot closer to the truth than I was willing to admit? Can Destiny's Children honestly be improved significantly?)

This isn't a request for ego stroking - it's more of a warning that I may be disappearing as a writer for a while as I root out some potential problems, and maybe flesh out some characters a little better.

Kinsfire

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Bearion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took that as your style. But since you asked; no I can't describe how Keven looks. He was described as good looking. He's an oversensitive white guy with a hair trigger temper who is also a powerful wizard.

All your women tend to be busty babes of varying heights, but most have no real depth. I can't form a clear mental picture of any, except Ailynn.

(Side note: I like busty babes as well as the next guy, but some average size ones can be damned interesting too. I married one. Wink )

All in all your friends criticism, though a little harsh is valid.

That said, I feel you do have a strong story sense with some great ideas.

That's my 1 cent opinion. (from a reader, NOT a writer)
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Shirh Khan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Hmm.... how do I put this delicately?
You ask if Triple-G might be in some vague kind of way correct?
Hell no!
Laughing

Seriously though- no one says that your characters *have* to be fully realized at all. But, in the interest of giving you constructive critizism, I'll elaborate.
In a sense, our characters are extensions of ourselves. Sometimes those extenstion are vague, wispy, and tenuous- and sometimes those extensions are concrete, solid, and firm. In a sense, they're peple, too. And with any person, there's a whole helluva lot that you "don't" know about them, before you know much about them. There's nothing that says you can't continue to flesh out your characters as you write. Give them a motivation here, a bit of description about their sleeping habits there- a story is as real as the author wants it to be, and as real as the reader wants it to be.
Your "opinion" source, for all his "I've been published"ness, doesn't seem to be (in this case) very knowledgeable about what he's speaking. I haven't gotten the sense of one-dimensionality from your writing, and I see virtually nothing wrong with it. (Okay, so I'm a details-hog; what do you expect from a FAN of Stephen King? *grin*)

And, on the flip side, who says that a story has to be "real"? Sometimes we dive headlong into books and other such media for the specific purpose of avoiding reality. Who says that you can't make your characters one-dimensional? For Pete's sake, isn't that what the cast of most of our "campy" movies is made of? No one accuses the movie makers of being "one-dimensional", or if they do, they quickly cover it up with their praise for the 'self-deprecation' and 'poking fun at itself'ness of the medium, and basically give it their two thumbs up for mindless enjoyment. Need we always deal with the dirt and grit that makes up our real lives, in our entertainment, too?

In any event, "K", if you need to do some soul-searching, then do so for yourself, and have a wonderful voyage- we'll be waiting anxiously for you when you return. If you're pleased with your work and the responses to it that you've gotten so far, then keep right on writing! Smile


-From the desk of one of your more enthusiastic fans,
Shirh Khan

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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mm... let's just get this clear right off the bat:

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR WRITING STYLE!

Or if there is, then there's something equally wrong with my reading style - and if there is, I ain't noticed it in twenty-eight years of extremely active readership.

Okay, so you don't describe your characters in detail - so what? Granted, some published authors go into great detail; Simon R. Green comes to mind - when I first read the "Hawk & Fisher" books after having read Blue Moon Rising, I recognized who Isobel and Hawk were long before it came out in-story. But look at his "Deathstalker" series. Can anyone describe Owen Deathstalker - and support it from the books? How about Ruby Journey? Admittedly, Valentine Wolf is described in great detail - because a concern with such details is an integral part of his character. And Jack Random was closely described, because the contrast between his appearance and what the legend led people to expect was important to the story.

A different author, this time - and one whose work has survived generations. Samuel Clemens. Look through his work - not just Tom Sawyer or Huckleberry Finn (though don't leave those out!), but as many of his writings as you can find. How often are the characters described - not just in detail, but at all? For example, what do the husband and wife in "The $30,000 Bequest" look like? The two characters in "What Is Man?" What do "The Innocents Abroad" look like? Yet are any of these writings lacking? Would they be improved by detailed sketches of these subjects?

Now, as to the other part of your question -
Kinsfire wrote:
An example - Kevin Macomber. Who is he? For that matter, who are any of those characters in Destiny's Children? Can you give me a description of these characters - their motivations, their reason for being?
Isn't that what you're showing? We find out who these characters are, by watching how they respond in the situations you create for them. That's what your stories are about. True, we could find out about their personal beliefs and philosophies by listening in when they sit down and talk about them - but who would read it? Shoot, who could stand to write it? Besides, talk is cheap - anyone can claim "I believe thus-and-so," but can you trust that? When you see someone make a decision and follow through with it in a tough situation, then you know (some of) what that person is.

I've rambled a bit with this, but I think the point will come across. To put it plainly: I think your professional source missed the mark completely. (That's the polite phrasing. My original was somewhat less polite than "sucks rocks".) Now, if something in your writing is making you unhappy, then by all means, identify it and change it. But recieving a check from a publisher doesn't make a writer the be-all and end-all of writing - in my (not-so-humble) opinion, this person was completely wrong this time.
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caspian
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinsfire,
I find nothing wrong with your writing stile at all. All of your stories have been Great Reads. If you feel you need more character description make a story cast section and dedicate a few dozen paragraphs to discribe each of your characters.

My thoughts for the moment

Caspian

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Concolor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: My writing may need to go on hold for a while... Reply with quote

Kinsfire wrote:
Someone whose opinion I trust, since this person has been published before, informed me of something they see as a problem with my writing. (And it wasn't the "I've been published and you haven't" down the nose kind of reaction, either. It was an honest, asked for constructive criticism.)
Kinsfire



Humph.

And double-humph.

Maybe I'm biased. Maybe I haven't done enough reading. After all I've only been a committed devourer of literature for thirty-six years. It's possible that I've missed reading all the important stuff. But I don't think so.

Just because someone managed to convince some myopic editor to set up an offset press and turn his scribbles into a book with an actual price tag is, in my mind, not a particularly good indication of worth on the part of the story. I have read some pretty incredible drivel in the form of published works, and frankly it has been my experience that the authors of Sabrinaverse fanfiction come out smelling like a rose by comparison much of the time.

Oh, sure, you have your best-sellers and classics and whatnot. If Robert Jordan told you your work needed work, you might want to put some credence in his criticism. But I'd take with a LARGE grain of salt the opinions of the 'lesser lights'.

Just don't let it stop you. Please.

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Nameless
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't really add much that has not been said in one of the other responses.

But it depends very much on the story, how detailed a character should be described. Some characters don't require a lot of detail, for others it makes sense. And sometimes the whole point of the story is getting to know the character(s), so you may not know much about the character for several chapters.

One question:
How much detail do you have on the characters (on notes or only in your head). Is that level of detail enough for the character and the role he/she plays? Is it enough to keep the character "in character"?

Think about that, but don't stop writing.

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Kinsfire
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bearion wrote:
All your women tend to be busty babes of varying heights, but most have no real depth. I can't form a clear mental picture of any, except Ailynn.


Which is a problem, IMHO. If these women are so damned important, then why can't anyone describe them?

Kinsfire

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Kinsfire
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shocked

Now I finish reading this, and I'm impressed.

Problem is, it's not just my characters. I'm not big on descriptions of things - a lot of what this person calls talking heads.

Basically, this person pointed out something that bothers me about some of my stuff. I'm impatient, and I like to get to the point. Unfortunately, a lot of things get left by the wayside, like descriptions of the world and its people. I am really something of a minimalist when it comes to descriptions, and that bugs me sometimes.

I really do consider what this person told me to be constructive criticism. It came across in that manner, as opposed to Gregg Guydish's e-mails.

Kinsfire

P.S. - BTW, the person in question is a member of this BBS...

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Catspaw
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silly question that just occurred to me, love ... You're on the Baen Bar, aren't you? Could you maybe participate in some of their story round-robins or whatever they are? Do they have critiquing groups? Those are big guns over there, and we were just talking this morning about how Ringo got his start ... why not you?
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Kinsfire
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need to rejoin - they had a major crash a little while ago, and I need to recreate my membership.
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Cateagle
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Bar has had several problems since the "Crash of 2002" (this is either the second or third crash there that I've been through). They've had to upgrade the software and evidence seems to indicate the new software, still on trial, has a few bugs in it.

The "Slush Pile" conference there is good for posting work for critiquing, the critiques appearing in "Slush Comments". The owner of the "Archangel Rose" conference, Rosemary Edgehill, is also good at in-depth critiquing and she is a published writer.

Thoughtfully,
Cateagle

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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinsfire wrote:
If these women are so damned important, then why can't anyone describe them?


In my case, it's because I haven't ever seen the "Gold Digger" comics - Mike's right: you do rely somewhat on your audience having followed those. But you know what? I don't consider that a weakness. Despite never having seen the art you're referencing, I love the story... because of the story. I've said it before; I'll no doubt say it again: character is what draws me in. In the case of "Destiny's Children", for me you started out tabula rasa - Kevin was an amnesiac Stranger in a Strange Land, and I didn't know who these two females were. Yet within seconds, you had interested me in who they were - an interest which hasn't faded at all.

Does the lack of description weaken it? Not at all. True, I couldn't sit down and describe the characters in Fred Perry's artwork... but can I describe the characters in your story? Certainly... there's just no guarantee that my descriptions will match yours. Let's see how I do... but remember, these descriptions are (largely) my imagination playing off of the story.

Kevin Macomber - about 5'9", dark hair (I'm tempted to say black), was in fair-to-middling shape at the beginning of the story, with a start on building a stomach. That trend reversed itself in-story, with a tendency to drop the weight and add some muscle in its place, though he's not likely to ever develop the sculpted, body-builder look. Eyes - I'm not really sure; the image I get wavers between grey and green. Prefers to wear his hair full, but not overly long. Wears light, comfortable clothing as a rule when out in public - in private, wears utilitarian clothing, such as protective lab gear, his "public wardrobe", or little-to-nothing, as appropriate. An expressive face, with a medium-wide mouth suitable for a wide range of emotional responses. No facial hair, by preference. Several smile lines, almost as many frown lines, and a collection of thinker's lines across the forehead.

Gina Diggers - about 5'4", long blond hair with reddish-gold highlights, in incredible shape. Wasp-waisted, with hips slightly broader than typical for her height and a large, firm bust. Eyes are mostly blue, but can range to green with her moods. Heart-shaped, pixie-like face - plenty of freckles. By preference, wears as little as possible, but always with an eye to the appropriate. Clothing tends to be as light as the weather will allow. Her expression is generally happy, though when something upsets her, the world can read it on her face - sometimes she clouds up, and sometimes she shuts down, but either way, anyone with more sensitivity than a stone can read her.

The Triplets - about 5'6", dark hair which falls to around the middle of the back. Figure... hm. The image varies, but honestly, I don't see them as all that "busty" - at least, not compared to Gina or Brittany. Well-developed, certainly, but... Okay, I'll hazard an estimate: 34-26-32. Though don't quote me; that estimate varies with the weather, my mood, and, for all I know, the stock market. Clothing - similar to Gina, but perhaps a shade less conservative, since they have their "sister act" to distract the world from whatever they may or may not be wearing.

So how'd I do? How close were my images to yours, and were they more or less detailed than you would expect?
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Catspaw
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Regan wrote:
If the advice is good then try to make use of it but I would not toss out what you already have and start over. That would be too drastic. Start with some points and integrate them, then add some more. Put on the song from The Wiz take it slow and "Ease on down the road."



Which is kinda what I said this morning. Going back and doing a complete rewrite is counterproductive and unnecessary. Just add in stuff as you go onward.

BTW, I've been looking at stuff again (is there a reason why I can't get Destiny's Children?). And in light of comments above .... since you're working in a fanfic mode, you are assuming people already know (or can find out fairly easily) what the characters look like. All the Sabrinaverse writers and readers already know what Sabrina, Zig Zag, et al. look like and what their world looks like, so not as much description is necessary. And with furry fiction in general, just naming the species gives you a heck of a lot of information right there (a "white male rabbit" will probably get you a better mental image than a "white male human").

The problem with your Golddigger material lies in the fact that the characters you created have very little description; they should have the most. In In the Storm's Wake, you give a fair bit of character description to Gina, with a little to Brianna and Brittany, and virtually none to the triplets and Unna. I just re-read it; you give Unna's height and hair color and the fact that she is beautiful, and the triplets' height, hair color and general curviness, whereas you discuss Gina's height, weight, build (including her exact measurements), hair and eye color, IQ, history, and her tastes in clothing. By the time we're nine chapters into the second story, we should know as much about them as we do about Gina. If someone is not familiar with the series, the only physical description they will have for Theodore is that he is male and has black hair, and for Irwin his age and gender (since I have NO visual referent on him, I visualize him as Dexter from Dexter's Laboratory ....). You do better with characterizations, since that you can get from dialogue and Kevin's observations of their actions, and here you might want to use a little more description of body English and expression. I think you should give more description of each character, not all at once, but in bits throughout, letting the image and characterizations build together. Give the most description to characters that do not appear in the source material. Likewise, settings that appear in the comic should get brief descriptions, and more detail should go to the parts you have invented (for example, you give plenty of detail in the description of Kevin's sanctuary room). So for fanfic, you're doing just fine. Better than most.

But ... you want to write professionally. You want to have All In A Day's Work or something like that published. Book material has to be much more fleshed out than fanfic. You don't have established characters to use as shorthand (like in Star Trek books). You can't give a one-line description of a place (like "a cantina in Mos Eisely") and have it conjure up the whole image. You have to establish the whole world for the reader, and make it solid, make it live. You need the descriptions, enough to make the reader see, hear, feel, and even smell the environment. You need the back history, flashbacks, motivations, and internal dialogue (although puleeeeze don't take it as far as Weber does!) And I think this forum, and perhaps Baen if they get it working, would be good places to work on that.

Don't go back. Don't stop. Go forward.
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Kinsfire
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, furs, in case you haven't realized from her previous post and this one, Catspaw is the person who gave me the constructive criticism that started this thread. Conversations like this are easy between us - she's my wife.

She's right, as far as descriptions are concerned. (Although I'd argue with the twins - I think I've given enough info to hint that their mode of dress is from the POV that clothing is for adornment rather than protection.)

Oh, Galadrion? Remember AC 2K2? Kevin can be described as about 6'0" to 6'1" (depends on the measurer) and hazel eyes that tend toward brown. In his birth universe, he had the beginnings of a paunch, and the top of his head was bald. He's been known to wear T-shirts with slogans like "I drank what? - Socrates" Sound familiar? Laughing But, to be honest, I like your description just as well. I think of him as being a more attractive version of me.

Kinsfire

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