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How to handle a paradox?
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RodTerl
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:36 am    Post subject: Paradox Reply with quote

I thought you stuck em on your feet an laced em up, same as everyone else does Cool

RodTerl

Trying to keep Piers Antony on the horizon.

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ANTIcarrot
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 5:43 pm    Post subject: Open wormholes Reply with quote

I'm a firm believer in parallel timelines, so all this talk about paradoxes seems like so much nonsense to me. Wink

Getting home though is a serious issue, but can be solved by simply not closing the worm-hole all the way. If you just shrink it to say a millimeter in size and stick in your pocket, you'll always have a way home no matter how much you alter the timeline you're in.

Since the machinery in Tabitha was *apparently* intended for observation, and since no changes in the past have affected the 'present', the beacon/black-box system used by Tabitha would probably serve a similar function.

ANTIcarrot.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Carrot and the worm whole will eat you pants and any thing in them, and a beleave what you ment was self correctional time line. YOU STILL HAVE PARADOX IN ALTERNATE TIMELINES. you know 2 masses on the same plane and such.
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ANTIcarrot
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read what I said please, Mr Guest. If you traveled back into an alternat timeline, you could not alter your own world and could return to it in perfect safety, as long as you had some kind of link connecting you to your origin time-line. A still open worm-hole could do that, and so I imagine can the beacon system Tabetha uses. In this case the origin timeline would not be self-correcting but completely isolated from any the effects of actions taken on the journey.

And what paradox are you referring to? If you're worried about introducing mass to the past, just remove an equivolent amount of air from the past. Ditto for an alternative time-line. No paradox need be created.

Of course by this system, Tabetha could never hope to save her sister, just create am alternate timeline where her sister didn't get killed in that particular accident.

ANTIcarrot.
Hmm. A hole eating everything in my pants. And I thought this wasn't that kind of forum. Wink
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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wheeler's theory states that time has an infinate number of parallel courses to flow from beginning to end, The Big Bang to Armagedon.

But it now seems that time is more like a braided rope, with threads interweaved with each other, but only a few strands intertwine with each other, many stay apart each other, and most in groups of parallel courses.

Interesting to see how it works out, and strange if our actions begin to unreavel the weave...

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Leonato
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:27 am    Post subject: Headache/Heartache Time Reply with quote

Firstly let me state that I subscribe to the thery that such time travel simply causes a parallell timeline (which can be defined as a set of interactions, if one wishes). Perhapse this is true, and perhapse the device that Tabitha caries with her allows her to return to her own timeline regardless of changes made in the past (avoiding the paradox, which I believe to be silly, and the fact that the paradox even exists being evidence that a single-timeline thery is flawed at its core). Asumeing she has left herself such a way back to her own timeline... she acheives nothing for herself. For to her, nothing has changed once she returns to her own time. It only changes for everyone else connected in -any- way with sabby -in the other timeline- not the one that Tabitha came from in the first place... This means, she would return to a future that still has sabby dead, and only has secured one possible past where she did not. In the grand scheme of things changeing nothing. Now, to save us all from a big ol heartache (Tabitha returning to her time to find nothing changed, and herself in a world of hot water)... I think we can settle for a lesser one, which intails either A) Tabby never returning to her timeline... or B) Tabby getting killed in the act of saveing Sabby (by being in the vechicle with her perhapse)... This of course doesent preclude any evil people thinking they are acting rightfully and traveling back to 'fix' what Tabitha is trying to do... and yes I mean that the way it sounds... 'fix'... Its all very disturbing, and its worth noteing, that useing this thery of time travel, does not get us out of this thing without one big giant heartache, one way or another. I for one wouldent mind if Tabby doesent survive the encounter that saves her sisters life, and those from her timeline abandon her. Leaving that timeline Tabbyless for all time, and the timeline we care about, in tact, with Tabby growing up normal, with a normal sister, who lives a normal and rewarding life with the fox she loves... Perhapse even haveing Alan a little brother/sister or two... or five...

Anyway, just my rambleing 2 euro-cents

Leonato

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with Paradoxidal Time, is that though it may allow for parallel time lines, only the time traveller is aware of the events and of the divergence. Other time lines either cease to exist, or exists parallel (and most of them- undisturbed) time.

The only significant problem or issue is the point of view of various theories and their ramifications of divergent time.

Taking the example of Sabrina being saved from her car accident which would have eventually killed her:

A) in the absence of her death, somebody else will die in her place instead. The corriaries being:
Aa) Somebody else will be in another car next to the truck at the time of of the accident, and thus be killed in her place.
(OR)
Ab) There would be an empty space that would have contained Sabrina and her vehicle; but somebody in another place will die for some other reason elsewhere- keeping the death count/rate constant. With:
Ab1) Any one could be "anyone"
(or)
Ab2) A scraficial lamb must be slaughtered to keep her alive, in most cases the lamb being the oberserver.
(OR)
Ac) No one would die to keep the count/rate constant, and Sabrina will eventually die at another time and place.

B) Because Sabrina did not die then and there at the scene of the accident, but she will eventually die any because all life must die to begin with. It is how she dies that prompts the question, with theories being:
Ba) She will die immediately after the accident through some other means becuase her life/time line was short to begin with.
Bb) She will continueing on living for years to come.

C) But because she lives, there are an infinate number of time lines to go through, and only the observer is only away of the divergent one they have created. Actually, they did not created it- it was already there, like a line of train tracks in parallel to enter a station, all they did was to switch the train from one track to another and only they are aware of the switch. In other time lines:
Ca) Sabrina lives on until other future events end her life, as observed by the observer.
Cb) Sabrina lives on and immediate dies for other reason- which may or may not been seen by the observer
Cc) Sabrina dies from the accident, the parallel time line, not seen by the observer.
Cd) Others may or may not die in her place, as not seen by the observer.
Ce) Though Sabrina continues to be Sabrina in some time lines- in others, Sabrina could be Zig Zag and ZZ- Sabrina, and the whole process of life and death happens with ZZ instead. She could even be a He, making Sabrina as Sabastin.
Cf) in some time lines not observable by the time traveller, Sabrina may not have existed at all.

The whole issue is in which theory one believes in and what consquences are brought on by the theories. The time traveller/observer is the only one that would know of any divergence that may have been created.

As stated by our favorite Fish, quite some time ago- "In another time, my furry self would be on PlanetSkin typing about this very issue and underlying these very facts..."

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man on a mission
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I truthfully beleave in a nut shell that what will be may be. The more we make an effort to change the past the more screwed up it becomes. The farther from what we new when we went back it will become.

Case one: Sabrina narrowly misses the accident by letting a school bus get infront of her. The accident happens, but not only well she get into the accident but also a bus full of kids. Several Kids die in the accident. She becomes stricken with guilt over it and falls into a depression that she hides from chris until its too late. Dont tell me it cant happen ethere, because Ive seen it happen.

Case two: Tabitha finds that the only way to prevent the accident is to take the drivers life! She goes back and kills the driver before he is able to get his CDL, but gets caught! Most of us know that she would be willing to do any thing to save Sabrina! She gets locked up and a more unexperinced driver gets behind the wheel of the truckt that night. He not only kills sabrina but could kills othere people in the process if trying to avoid killing her.

Basicaly the more drastic the change in the time line the more temporal deaviation is libial to occcur. Am I correct in assumeing that Elfen?
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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that is correct, as possible outcomes depends on number of varibles being played out and the seemingly insignifigant outcomes they produce and the rate in which they into sugnificant ones.

No matter what the outcome in this becomes, one thing is certain. There is a balance in the universe, and being able to track which varibles to get the cleanest outcome maybe possibe, but its not an entirely clean process.

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Cirrel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a quick note on balance in the universe.

According to statistics, there are more people living abd breathing today than have ever died in the whole history of humanity.

According to astronomers, the universe is expanding at an increasingly faster rate.

One might call 'expansion' the norm. Sooooo.....

Logically, there should be an ever expanding number of alternate universes where you can have any outcome you want. Bad and good.

Seems the tricky part is bouncing around between 'em, and like Elfen Furry sez - only the alternate jumping observer sees the differences.

Cirrel - who likes to create alternate universes with his wordprocessor. (Who knows? Maybe that's exactly what you do when you write a story!)

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hikaru
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cirrel wrote:
Just a quick note on balance in the universe.

According to statistics, there are more people living abd breathing today than have ever died in the whole history of humanity.


That's only because history doesn't record every death that ever occured. You mgiht want to check this out. Considering the number of wars, plagues, etc. that have swept across the planet combined with the fact that there are always a percentage of people who either never reproduce, or if they did, their offspring never made it to maturity which would also sway the balance against you on that fact.

There's some very nice logic behind the premise, but unfortunately it relies on numerous assumptions that just don't quite hold water when examined closely.

Cirrel wrote:
According to astronomers, the universe is expanding at an increasingly faster rate.


SOME astronomers think....

Cirrel wrote:
One might call 'expansion' the norm. Sooooo.....

Logically, there should be an ever expanding number of alternate universes where you can have any outcome you want. Bad and good.

Seems the tricky part is bouncing around between 'em, and like Elfen Furry sez - only the alternate jumping observer sees the differences.

Cirrel - who likes to create alternate universes with his wordprocessor. (Who knows? Maybe that's exactly what you do when you write a story!)


Logically, alternate universes aren't in the same frame of reference as our universe. Of course, when you think about it, if our universe is expanding, what's it expanding into? That's a paradox.

The cosmos is a wonderous thing, but it's nothing compared to a good multiverse.

Cheers

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Cirrel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The cosmos is a wonderous thing, but it's nothing compared to a good multiverse.


All true, Hikaru. I was playing with the idea of 'expansion'. The idea that the norm seems to be to make more rather than less of anything. I've heard that the level of uniformity in the universe is increasing (Entropy in a 'closed' system) and yet the level of complexity seems to be increasing too. (at least on a smaller scale). It's like saying both Good an Bad are increasing at the same time. So, how can one increase opposites and still maintain balance? Only one way. Expansion.

O 'couse, all of my musings may be a load of hooey - which seems to be getting bigger, too. Very Happy

Cirrel

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last Time I did multiverse calculations, Dr. Kaku almost had a heart attack... serves him right too.

At last count, there are 2 concuurent universes running on infinate timelines. 1 (ours) is expanding, the other shrinking.- both came into being from a 10D universe where the 4th D shattered, creating 1 4D (ours) and another 6D.

From that, it came from a 21D universe, and from my calculations of that time, it exponentially grew from there.

Strangely- its the 4th D that broke in all of them... for them to balance out. But this work was done back in '86. Things could have changed since then...

All I remember was the headaches I went home with... Todays Physists have it easy... Cluster a few G5's together and out comes an answer, no more chalk dust or staring at a blackboard again...

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that I have tickled a few nuerons that should never be reactivated ever again (ow! Thats why...)...

The conclusions that kept coming up was from an infinate-D universe, shattering on the 4th D, created a bundled bunch of 4D's with 4 & 6 D universes riding on them....

Creating infinate time lines and infinate parallel universes...

And only the observer going from one time frame to another, would realize whats going on... everything else continues as it was...

Now my tummy hurts. Sad

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Cirrel
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<Pats Elfen Furry's tummy>

There, there. Have a cookie. They taste good in this universe.

Cirrel - who doesn't want to imagine a universe where cookies take like boogers.

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