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How to handle a paradox?
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cyberhorn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bear has a valid question it is in the long run a question that can be only answered by the writers

IMHO and in my own writing i would say that taby has created a turn in the timeline literaly changeing the possiblities of its future

she has altered the thoughts and actions of brina even if she were to be returned to her own time imeadiately the lasting effect has happened brina will question every action as taby has already told her she came back to save her life

if anything the future taby came from no longer exists for her she is effectivly immune to the changes in the timeline as she flowing with them

thus the future she has returned to with brina to show her that she is telling the truth, where harvy is now dead is a new future not the same one she left from

in effect we are folowing taby a stick flowing over and along the flow of time where it dips into the stream we see the time there and the sticks effect on that spot
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man on a mission
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My physics teacher use to tell me that if you were to time travel, that there may be a possablity that your future still may exist, its just become an alternate or parrel reality. the future may not disappear but divide off at that point, kind of like the alternate dimensions in sliders.(wich uses a lot of the same principles as time travel) Tabitha may no longer be time traveling. she may infact be traveling to a diffrent diminsion as a whole. that is according to miss waters. If your reading this HI MISS Waters. Very Happy
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JamesPI
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind of like the Back to the Future thing, right? Where Doc drew a line on the chalkboard and drew a line going down the running parallel to it? Who likes cheesy awesome movies like I do?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simple: Merely call in Captain Janeway.

It'll all be sorted out and reset within 45 minutes.

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man on a mission
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes james the chalk bourd example from back to the future is the best way to demonstrate the theory, the othere little glitch is what happens after you change time, do you know exist out side of time or do you disappear? othere thing is several time travel experts say that time traveling may make the piece of altered matter(in this case of tabitha) may produce tacyion radiation (a suspected by product of temporal anomalys eg. worm holes, black holes,ect.)


Edit:she will not give off tacion radiaioon but the were the hole time space was created will give it off, sorry, half asleep when I wrote the last post.
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RodTerl
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 10:13 am    Post subject: Paradox solved? Reply with quote

Um, Im vry sorry bout this, Im currently runing slow due to lack of sleep, got back in from mums earlier today.

I need to do some more work to derive a half decent math analog of the structure of space time, but various points seem to be true. Since the universe eventually exists in all posible,valid, states, you can take i to exist in all states simultaneously, taken from an arbitary viewpoint from elsewhere not in the system. Therefore, any and all actions ahave to be fully coherent with each other, when their effects are propagated throughout the whole of space time. (University of Waterloo, Canada?)

The simplest structure I have currently under consideration, is that the universe is a fully closed entity, in space, time, energy, resulting in 5 orthogonal complex dimensions, which can be equally represented in an equation having one real componant, and 7 orthogonal complex componants, an 8D equation.

Since negative energy has been proved to exist, and the axis are symmetrical, this implies that negative space, and negative time also exists, the values and probabilities to be derived from further work.

The sum of the Omega Multiverse, that is, of all realities, over all possibilies, must be equal to zero, with a particualr flaw i the structure, which is the Godel flaw, meaning that the Multiverse is therefore both fully explained, and not fully explained, having one unresolvable flaw, that is Known to be a flaw, but unresolvable.

This is what I call the Penrose Paradox, from Penrose work on 5 way tiling in a flat plane, which requires a flaw of a certain maximum size and shape, to allow the rest of the infinite plane to be tiled perfectly.

The size and structure of the flaw, its edge, depends on the size of the units being used to tile the plane.

I hope I can write this more coherently another time, maybe Im only getting this far, because Im mostly asleep.

Wish you all the best

RodTerl

Im here, because I believe Im here, because Ive been Taught that Im here.

Reality is a consensus of opinion.

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MikeWolf
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of you went waay over my head.....but I've developed my own "Newbie's Theory of Time/Space" if you will. Probably be trashed by some Supermathematician in the year 5092 CE, but this system of thinking helps put it into perspective when reading temporally-odd literature.'

My points as follows:

1. There are an infinate number of possible universes. Every possible difference(Did that guy twitch an eye, or not? Did that O2 molecule bounce off the other, or narrowly miss it?)
2. Most of them are so similar they just blend together and melt into one.
3. Time Travel, per se, is impossible.
4. What we perceive as time travel is merely jumping between these universes....some of which are occurring at a different point in time relative to one another.
5. Thus, you cannot really change anything....you merely create more universes with your jumping into them.
6. You DO cause change for yourself, and for the people in the universe(s?) you journey to, thus you have made a change for someone. It may be futile in the big picture overall but you've done it just the same, even if nobody will ever know.

I read somewhere, recently, though I don't know the source, of someone asking an omnipotent being what life was. The answer was "You are stardust." That about sums it up.

Certainly keeps me from being confused when dealing with this subject.
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RodTerl
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:33 am    Post subject: Ouch 8) Reply with quote

From what I understand, thats not to bad a description really. Cool

I work on the principle of least effort. From any given point, the present, there are a multitude of allowable futures, which are constrained by interactions, field strengths etc, and so, for each present, there are a multitude of pasts, each of which has an allowable connection to the given present.

Time travel involves switching a given set of future possibilities, to an alternate set of possibilities, but only by altering a given point in the past, so that it connects through a coherent set of allowable presents, to end at the given future. However, this can be far more complicated, in that, Back To The Future, multiple alterations from far futures, can manipulate a given timeline dynamically, in order to alter the events occuring. That is, inputting energy and effects at given present points, so that the least energy path is not the one taken, but a higher energy, that is, alternate, path.

This energy therefore has to be dealt with, otherwise it will build up to catastrophic levels, possibly ending up with its discharge being though a resonant back blast through the equipment attempting to drive yet another temporal wormhole through altered timelines.

This also means, that different timelines will have a lower energy than the origional timeline, and so anyone else attempting to access the past at a similar time, will find themselves accessing a different selection of probabilities, and thereby altering the path of the previous temporal cross access.

Hmm.. n recursive hyperdimensional nonlinear cross temporal navigational mechanics. Anyone want to take a Phd? Cool

RodTerl

This aint complicated. Trying to understand the dynamics of a group meeting, now Thats complicated. (Spaciotemporal Psychomechanics of Resteraunts as applied hypergeometrical transistions. D.Adams Cool )

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Mapper
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oy! The theories this reminding me of that movie Milienium where each time they tried to correct something it just brought on a bigger paradox til eventually they accidently killed the one individual that had a major part in their existencs, and thus destroyed their time line.
Now what is done is done to correct anything will cause the back and forth loops. save die save die on into infinity. Sabby is going to have to be returned, it would be interesting to read their history archives on the date Sabby disappeared, Skunk vanishes without a trace, suspected foul play? Now this would be another driving force to Tabby finding out what happened to her sister and thus continuing her disire for time travel (but influenced at a younger age)to find out where her sister vanished to. Now we have 2 Tabbys one trying to save her sisters life and one trying to find out why she vanished. Now when Tabby #1 returns to the future she may find that everyone there believes that she went back to find her sister instead of save her. another alternate timeline OY!!
Interesting thought is that if Tabby were to be with Sab the night of the accident and saved Sabby from that point a new time line starts and That Tabby may fade from that existance but Sabby would remember that point life continues only Sabby and the readers know what happend(oppertunity for another tear jerker.) It would appear that someone is going to perish to set things straight. Or there's this big flash and we are back to chapter one.

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a slight twist on my end, in my Tabiverse addition, only the time travelling teams are aware of the paradoxes.

The strangeness of it is that no one else knows about it and Wheeler's Theorum seems to converge to a point at every incident, so instead of parallel universes, you get a braid of time lines tied together by that individual and their actions.

Can somebody say "Opps?"

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Mapper
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ill agree there Elf. I think there was an episode of the new Twilight Zone where this big game hunter went back in time to hunt a T-rex, The time team did research to find a T-Rex that was going to be killed by an act of nature so as to when the hunter shot it there would be no effect on the timeline. the went back in time and killed the T-Rex without incident.But apon there return things had changed. It was discovered that the hunter had stepped on a Moth.
Another interesting Idea going back to the night Tabby saves Sabby is that upon saving her sister she activates the recall but no recall accures for the future has changed and now shes stuck in Sabby's time.

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User_of_shadows
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe time travel on one timeline is impossible. I believe tough time can be stretched and compacted (theory of Relativity applies here I believe). The only way time travel would exist if there would be alternate realities. If you were able to break the constraints of time I don't believe it would be possible to go back on your own time line but you would be flung (possibly randomly) to another time line were things could be nearly the same (1 less butterfly) or completely different (technology is 100x superior tough at same instant in time). Say if you were able to find a near similar reality to your own. And you stop or start the event you wanted to stop/start happened or didn't happen. I believe a new time line would be created from it. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to just stretch time just a tiny fraction (about a microsecond) (this has happened in one experiment were they had accurate watches on to object on really fast moving object not moving at all.) So to be able to CHANGE time it would require all the power of something like a black hole or a super nova. The problems of time travel are many to be able to change to another timeline you would have to break through your timeline or the timeline you are in this could have disastrous effects on other timelines chaos could ensue for one time line may effect another and another and so on. So I believe that if time travel is possible you should not meddle in it.
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RodTerl
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:45 am    Post subject: Realities Reply with quote

I overheard someone talking about multipl time lines just the other day, and they said something which makes excellent sence.

At any given instant, there are an infinite number of possible timelines. However, due to interference effects, ie quantum wave mechanics, all those timelines that are invalid at that point, destructively interfere, and so do not disturb that point. All those timelines that are valid, constructively interfere, giving rise to the statistical average we call reality.

This means, that as timelines are altered throughout existance, at any given point in reality, the various invalid and valid timelines alter and change, but non are created, none are destroyed, only the resultant reality remains, in most cases with effectively no alteration (2 atoms switch places the other side of Universe), right through to massive variations, BUT, which are undetectable except to an observer in a meta time line, or a chaos computer.

I think we can settle on two basic rules of time travel?

1. The Universe abhors a temporal paradox.
2. If a temporal paradox exists, the longer it exists, the more energy is being applied to create it, and the easier it will be to create a situation to resolve the paradox.

These ideas have been handled many times througout story telling, one of the best, being the ultimate paradox, and its resolution being the creation of the Universe itself.

Preliminary analysis of certain data, including energy density, curvature, etc, leads this to be a good contender.

Cool

The Universe exists, because at sometime in the future, Intelligence makes it so Cool

I still like the 5D complex donut though.. its the simplest construction that works fully, and as Einstien said, make it as simple as possible, but no simpler. After all, you can Look at a pile of sand, and see the distortions caused between 3 and 4 spacial dimentions, just like, if you create 6 massive equilateral triangles, and go to the Salt Flats, you can lay them down carefully, and get an overlap, because the Earth is curved,, and so theyll Show you the distortion between 2 and 3 spacial dimentions Cool

Hope you enjoy Cool

RodTerl

Concorde flighs faster than a rifle bullet, at the edge of space, where the sky is black, and the Earth is curved, using less fuel than a Tank to do so.

Its too old, too small, too slow.

So what. It was built in 1969. Whats been done in the meantime? 8(

Its the only futuristic aircraft we have left, and as the gnomes put it,
It looks like its going too fast, even when its standing still.

Someone said that Concorde flighs like a fighter. I beg to disagree. Being rated to +11,-4 g in Normal operation, it will OutPerform many fighters.

Mourn for the death of a dream, mourn for the death of a civilisation. 8(

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you think I use a 'man-made' singularity called 'The Orion's Rift?' Just a tiny amount of iron to get a whole lot of engery in the tiniest amount of space possible...

The multiple time-line theory belongs to a phyisist named Archibal Wheeler; of which (if true) explains the existance of antimatter as well. (Antimatter being matter going backwards through time; for which antimatter does exist but this explains why.)

Back in high school, I had a time travel theory on a single timeline- what would happen is you sent just one mouse back in time 1 day? Answer I got, since this event would repeat an infinate number of times (relative to everything else), yesterday would end up with an infinate number of mice while tomaroow would have none. If you sat down to think about, I'll guarentee a headache the likes you never had before... followed by a bout of insanity and finally clarity... My advice afterwards: play dumb for the rest of your life- you'll be bothered a lot less.

As Dr. Kaku would say- Time Paradoxes (and Time Travel) exists if Time allows it. Its a fairly simple rule...

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Tom Mazanec
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 2:25 pm    Post subject: My guess Reply with quote

Butterfly effect is correct. Tabitha has already significantly changed the past...if she succeeds in saving Sabrina, and just goes into the future, she will end up in a world where Sabrina is alive, there are two of "her", and the newspapers look different than she is used to. She may have some kind of "anchor" that could send her back to her "own" future, but that would be pointless, as Sabrina would be dead there. In her original universe, she has simply vanished forever.
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