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Chris Foxx Was Right... sorta.
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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 9:25 pm    Post subject: Chris Foxx Was Right... sorta. Reply with quote

Just a few seconds ago, I was emailed this .pdf document created by my old mentor Michio Kaku.

It seems that the work done in the past 5 years ro so, many strides has been taken in theorical physics, though this document is not detailing of such works, but more like an admittance of sorts.

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Stormwalker
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting read, Elfen. Very Happy That kind of physics has always been interesting to me, even as a layman, so it's nice to see some of it spelled out. Smile

Lindsay
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AmigaDragon
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For some reason, I had to disable my download manager before I could download it. A simple url for that link would simplify things.
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Cateagle
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Regan wrote:
Quote:
There is also the paradox of the man who is own mother. (My apologies to Heinlein.) "Jane" is left at an orphanageas a foundling. When "Jane" is a teenager, she falls in love with a drifter, who abandons her but leaves herpregnant. Then disaster strikes. She almost dies giving birth to a baby girl, who is then mysteriously kidnapped. Thedoctors find that Jane is bleeding badly, but, oddly enough, has both sex organs. So, to save her life, the doctorsconvert "Jane" to "Jim.""Jim" subsequently becomes a roaring drunk, until he meets a friendly bartender (actually a time traveler in disguise)who wisks "Jim" back way into the past. "Jim" meets a beautiful teenage girl, accidentally gets her pregnant with ababy girl. Out of guilt, he kidnaps the baby girl and drops her off at the orphanage. Later, "Jim" joins the timetravelers corps, leads a distinguished life, and has one last dream: to disguise himself as a bartender to meet acertain drunk named "Jim" in the past. Question: who is "Jane's" mother, father, brother, sister, grand- father,grandmother, and grandchild?


Has Cheetaur been reading this? Wink


Heh, I don't know if he has or not, but the story, All You Zombies has been out there for some 40+ years.

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Superlagg
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Regan wrote:
Quote:
There is also the paradox of the man who is own mother. (My apologies to Heinlein.) "Jane" is left at an orphanageas a foundling. When "Jane" is a teenager, she falls in love with a drifter, who abandons her but leaves herpregnant. Then disaster strikes. She almost dies giving birth to a baby girl, who is then mysteriously kidnapped. Thedoctors find that Jane is bleeding badly, but, oddly enough, has both sex organs. So, to save her life, the doctorsconvert "Jane" to "Jim.""Jim" subsequently becomes a roaring drunk, until he meets a friendly bartender (actually a time traveler in disguise)who wisks "Jim" back way into the past. "Jim" meets a beautiful teenage girl, accidentally gets her pregnant with ababy girl. Out of guilt, he kidnaps the baby girl and drops her off at the orphanage. Later, "Jim" joins the timetravelers corps, leads a distinguished life, and has one last dream: to disguise himself as a bartender to meet acertain drunk named "Jim" in the past. Question: who is "Jane's" mother, father, brother, sister, grand- father,grandmother, and grandchild?


Has Cheetaur been reading this? Wink


This is about the time when Godland would send in Ents to go fix the time hemorage.

And Jane/Jim is all of the above. It is possible when you screw around with time, hense the whole Ent thing. In my story, Ents are pseudo-energy beings that are immune to chrolological (or is it illogical) changes (Meaning that if you go back into the past and kill one somehow, it will be there when you get back and be ever so pissed at you.). Two words: Chrolological Moderators.

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Superlagg
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Regan wrote:
Quote:
This is about the time when Godland would send in Ents to go fix the time hemorage.

And Jane/Jim is all of the above. It is possible when you screw around with time, hense the whole Ent thing. In my story, Ents are pseudo-energy beings that are immune to chrolological (or is it illogical) changes (Meaning that if you go back into the past and kill one somehow, it will be there when you get back and be ever so pissed at you.). Two words: Chrolological Moderators.
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This comes back to a post I made at the start. The general comments were that if Tabitha changed things then "Fate" would have to kill someone else to re-balance the scales. But what if something went wrong? What if Sabrina was NOT the one that was supposed to die? What if Tabitha was "sent" by Fate to correct this? Who might have been the one that should have died? Chris? Tabitha? Maybe Alan?


Why would the scales have to be rebalanced? Why should someone die in place of someone who was saved via time alterations? And if so, why would it have to be Tabitha or Chris? Why not Joe? If I were to go back in time and push someone out of the way of a bus and save his life, why must someone die that day?

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is enough alti-verses out there not to need balance in the entire multi-verse becuase of alteration placed upon 1 time-line.

In a multi-parallel time-line universe, the events you change or create, only shifts you to another time-line, and only you are aware of its changes.

The problem with this, is with time-traveling tourists, there are bound to be an ugly one or three who would:
a) steal a few treasures of the past
b) try to alter the past through their addition
c) put their name in the history books...
or d) Excuse the Vulgarity placed here

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SSgt Bear
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disclaimer: Much of the following is a bit of a rant. Feel free to ignore it if you disagree. After all, I'm not Stephen Hawking.

Although I'm using a WebTV and am therefore unable to read the document in question, I have read, over the years, dozens of articles about the theory behind time travel. The basic consensus is that time travel is impossible because it can create paradox. The old, senile, toothless saw about going into the past and killing yer own grandpa, etc., etc., is nearly always dragged out to illustrate the "problem".

To put the whole thing in perspective, scientists are saying that time travel is not possible because it offends their sensibilities. Oh, really? Well, then why can't I just object to gravity and then fly around, eh? Actually it goes deeper than that. Most of the articles explain how time travel is theoretically possible, but since (the author assumes) the universe couldn't possibly work that way, the author usually calls in an as yet "undiscovered" law of nature that prevents time travel. I have a word for "undiscovered" laws of nature for which there is little (read: no) evidence -- Cow exhaust! (Actually, it's bulls[omething], but I'm not sure my first choice in this matter comes in under the PG-13 wire.) Only one author I'm aware of has pointed out the lack of time travelling tourists, a more telling point than a BS "law of nature", but there is the possibility that they really are here, but they're traveling incognito.

Besides, I've had it drilled into me that a paradox usually isn't really a paradox, but a way to point out faulty logic. The "separated twins" paradox*, f'rinstance, isn't a paradox but an illustration of how travel at near light speed would be expected to affect a moving person relative to one who didn't move.

I figure the "kill Grandpa" scenario actually illustrates something essential about time travel, rather than illustrating its impossibility. If I go back in time and kill Grandpa, it doesn't retroactively kill me because whoever doesn't get born because Grandpa's dead isn't me. Grandpa's dead, but in the metaverse that includes my birth, backwards loop, and subsequent nonbirth, it did happen. The ony problem is having the linguistic tools to describe what happened. If you introduce branching timelines or infinitely parallel universes, it just gets easier.

Nobody has to die when time travel occurs. It's just that the folks whose job it is to explain these things just don't like the idea. Tough. I don't like the price of gas right now, but refusing to believe it doesn't change a @#$% thing.
[/rant]

Of course, since Tabitha: the Story depends on the basic assumption that preventing a death that's "already happened" causes the death of some other person, I guess it had better stand. Still, if someone has to die, why can't it be a dairy cow in Wisconsin? They've got so many they'd hardly notice.

--SSgt Bear

*One twin flies to Alpha Centauri and back at narly the speed of light while the other stays home on Earth. The travelling twin experiences the passage of time more slowly than his stay-at-home brother, who is significantly older when they reunite.

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AmigaDragon
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SSgt Bear wrote:
Disclaimer: Much of the following is a bit of a rant. Feel free to ignore it if you disagree. After all, I'm not Stephen Hawking.

And if you were Stephen Hawking, we couldn't ignore it if we disagree with his theory? Wink

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SSgt Bear
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmigaDragon wrote:
And if you were Stephen Hawking, we couldn't ignore it if we disagree with his theory? Wink

Now, be nice!

It's just that the physicists all agree that the math and the theory agree that time travel is possible. Yet they still try to explain why it isn't. Irrational behavior from otherwise rational people, ya think?

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SSgt Bear wrote:
AmigaDragon wrote:
And if you were Stephen Hawking, we couldn't ignore it if we disagree with his theory? Wink

Now, be nice!

It's just that the physicists all agree that the math and the theory agree that time travel is possible. Yet they still try to explain why it isn't. Irrational behavior from otherwise rational people, ya think?

--SSgt Bear


No, not really.
Theorical Physicists and Mathematicains agree with what's on paper. Pratical Physicists work with whats on paper and through observation and/or experimenation, figure out the validity of what was expressed on said paper.

Much of time travel theories depend on a few small things, but in reality, depends on one this- the allowance this unvierse has on Time travel. Einstein's orginal findings was so astounding that he literally erased his work because he himself did not believed it. He continued to work on it and literally remove those orginal elements which are once again being found.

As theory goes, Time travel is possible if this was a 'rotating universe'. Along with the "comsic fudge factor" (aka- dark matter theory, that Einstein orinally refused to accept when he found it), according to theory (or theories), Time travel is possible.

According to the Practical Physicists (main in the field of Astro Physics and of their observations), dark matter exists. Radio Telescopes have been picking up signals in places that seems there is nothing there. Dark Matter is the only answer to this.

A rotating universe would clinch it for time travel. Observations only proves the expanding universe that Einstien predicted (but ignored until Hubble discovered the epansion of the universe on his films). Current observations have yet detected such a rotation, but some believe that they might have. The arguement is still out on that one.

Why I couldn't be a furniture mover instead of a mad scientist...?

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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 12:19 pm    Post subject: Speaking of Heinlein... Reply with quote

and to bring this thread back to furries and time travel...

I have just finished re-reading "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls." The ending is very unsatisfying, although I understand the outcome is actually explained in another Heinlein book.

So...what happens to Pixel, poor baby?

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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Speaking of Heinlein... Reply with quote

mrblanche wrote:
and to bring this thread back to furries and time travel...

I have just finished re-reading "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls." The ending is very unsatisfying, although I understand the outcome is actually explained in another Heinlein book.

So...what happens to Pixel, poor baby?


YOU HAD TO MENTION THAT NAME!!! ARGH!

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mrblanche
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:37 am    Post subject: The name... Reply with quote

I guess you mean Heinlein, and not Pixel!

He certainly does elicit strong feelings. Many experts think his last few books were a joke on the SF community. Maybe.

I still think he had a great idea for qualifying to vote in "Starship Troopers."

But...can you answer the original question? And does his work not expose many of the very paradoxes of time travel we were discussing here?

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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: Speaking of Heinlein... Reply with quote

mrblanche wrote:
So...what happens to Pixel, poor baby?


Well, I'm not certain if he shows up in any of Heinlein's other works, but he makes an appearance in Callahan's Key, by Spider Robinson. While not the best of the Callahan series, there is also a German Shepherd who speaks English with a "cherman" accent.

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