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Goodbye IRS...?
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Good idea?
Yes.
35%
 35%  [ 7 ]
No.
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
Maybe.
30%
 30%  [ 6 ]
Didn't bother to read the bill.
20%
 20%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 20

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Thane
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Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 275

PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:37 am    Post subject: Goodbye IRS...? Reply with quote

This post is mainly for those fellow members who reside within the USA, for the reason that they (we) are the ones potentially affected here. And since it's composed of some legalese, be forewarned.

Read this and tell me what you think. Good idea? Bad? Likely to pass? Or does a snowball have a greater chance in the desert?
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ironbadger
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know the particulars of the bill, but the IRS has been almost as much of a hassle as a help to the federal government since at least the 70s.

Since it was based on a measure voters were essentially tricked into voting for and then could not do away with when it was too late, and is immensely unfair, I say let it be taken out.

-Badger-

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Henry_Hound
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem. What if you have to get groceries and you can't afford to because of the higher sales tax. That's the major problem I see with this is that by moving it all to sales tax you'll make it harder for poor families to buy what they need. After all if you don't make enough you get the taxes back, what happens when you need something like food but can't affoard it.
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Shoobie
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Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry_Hound wrote:

Problem. What if you have to get groceries and you can't afford to because of the higher sales tax. That's the major problem I see with this is that by moving it all to sales tax you'll make it harder for poor families to buy what they need. After all if you don't make enough you get the taxes back, what happens when you need something like food but can't affoard it.


Bingo...

Not to mention, the tax would go up for all of us, not just poor people. Think about all the money that goes to taxes, outside of sales tax. If you get rid of everything but sales tax, you have to boost sales tax to cover that. I don't even want to know what that percentage would be.

And what happens to states with no sales tax? Like Delaware. They'd have to implement a tax, or else none of the people living there would have to pay taxes...and Delaware's population would go through the roof.

There have been attempts to do this all the time. I think chairs in the Capital are made out of recycled bills like this one.
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Joshua Fox
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shoobie wrote:

Bingo...

Not to mention, the tax would go up for all of us, not just poor people. Think about all the money that goes to taxes, outside of sales tax. If you get rid of everything but sales tax, you have to boost sales tax to cover that. I don't even want to know what that percentage would be.


The general consensus on the hill appears to be roughly between 18% and 32%, depending on who you ask. If it were passed, (which I've been assured it won't) the compromise number would probably be at 26%.

Either way it's a moot point; Democrats and Republicans alike who have any mind for their reputations and careers are avoiding it like the plague.

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Shoobie
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As they should.

What's the advantage of this? We're ditching the IRS because they don't function properly and our taxes are runamuck?

Doesn't sound like we need to get rid of the IRS to me. Sounds like we need to fix the problems, instead.
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Cateagle
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ditching the IRS is simply abolishing another terrorist organization. IMHO, of course. Would the Sales Tax be all that different from the VAT so many countries use now?
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Styx
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never going to happen it'd be like hogs asking that the trough not be filled so high. I don't think a national sales tax could replace all of what would be lost unless it was mind numbingly high.
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Cateagle
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styx wrote:
Never going to happen it'd be like hogs asking that the trough not be filled so high. I don't think a national sales tax could replace all of what would be lost unless it was mind numbingly high.


Perhaps we could also trim back expenses? There's a lot that Congress is doing that, IMHO, certainly isn't covered by their charter under the US Constitution. I have seen one *really* subversive idea out there, instead of payroll deductions, folk would have to save and write quarterly checks to the IRS. It's subversive 'cause you'd see just exactly how much you're paying for government. *chuckle* For an equally subversive idea, how about shifting presidential elections to the first Tuesday after April 15th?

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Styx
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally would like to see the national budget audited, I can't believe some of the things the government wastes money on 6k for a coffee maker to be used in the pentagon $75 for a stapler half a mill for a study to see if cattle emissions contribute to global warming I mean MFG WHY? What the hell you going to do about it if it does they are not going to tell me I can't have my steak I'll lead the revolt if they try. Evil or Very Mad
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Sigurd Volsung
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the main problems with the IRS is its own wastefulness, there was one time an audit was done on the IRS, and it couldn't account for something like half of its budget.

When it comes $75 staplers, that has to do with no bid contracts being handed out to friends of congressmen, or at least contract from there states, which is common ploy to be able to claim your helping to create jobs.

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Kyrin
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Henry_Hound wrote:
Problem. What if you have to get groceries and you can't afford to because of the higher sales tax. That's the major problem I see with this is that by moving it all to sales tax you'll make it harder for poor families to buy what they need. After all if you don't make enough you get the taxes back, what happens when you need something like food but can't affoard it.


That one is a paper tiger. Most states don't tax food items, however if they do start for tax purposes, the taxes on food most likely won't be as high as the ones on say, shoes. Also if you aren't paying income tax, very few people are going to be incapable of buying groceries.

Right now we pay too much in taxes, and we don't have a choice about it. If we are taxed through what we buy then we will only be paying taxes when we buy something and we have the right to not buy anything and just keep our money. If you think about it...most people only buy things they can afford, if they can't afford it, then they don't get it. Which means that people will be taxed more fairly.

Those who don't have a lot of money won't be taxed as much as they are currently. Those who have more money will also be taxed less, but since they tend to spend more, it will still be a fair tax based on their ability to pay for what they want.

Right now we pay our taxes, get very little say in how our money is used by the government and a good part of the time get nothing in return. If tax money is through what we buy we have a powerful tool in controlling our government folks, all we have to do is stop spending on non essentials all at once and we can starve out their funding, in theory anyway.

Anyway I would like to see this kind of thing pass, but considering the number of paper tigers generated from this kind of thing, it'll probably chase it's own tail and get nowhere.

Kyrin
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Henry_Hound
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine does, so that's a concern for me.

But lets say they don't apply this tax to food just everything else you pay for that you would need or want.

Hand soap, dish soap, laundry soap, bath/shower soap, shampoo, hairspray/gel, toilet paper, paper towels (if you use them), combs/hairbrushes, makeup, nonreusable cleaning supplies, shaving gel/cream, razors/razor heads/blades, gas/diesel for your vehicle, tires for said vehicle (bicycles need tires and tubes), You will eventually have to get a new pair of shoes when your old ones fall to peices, pants if needed, shirts if needed, cigarettes (for those that refuse to quite smoking), Alcoholic drinks (Not counted as food items the last time I checked), some non alcoholic drinks possibly (pop and other stuff you dodn't need to survive), lightbulbs (or you could try using candles but you'll have to pay for them too [unless you make youre own from scratch])

You get the idea That's all stuff that you will eventually have to buy. Still think you'll control the government with that kind of tax plan.

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Sigurd Volsung
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kyrin wrote:
Right now we pay too much in taxes, and we don't have a choice about it.


You do realize we are the lowest taxed developed country in the world? So the arguement that we're already over taxed isn't justifiable. Plus it'd be hard to link taxed items to budget items, espicailly since most people haven't a clue what parts of the government do.

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Aramis Dagaz
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2005 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigurd Volsung wrote:
Kyrin wrote:
Right now we pay too much in taxes, and we don't have a choice about it.


You do realize we are the lowest taxed developed country in the world? So the arguement that we're already over taxed isn't justifiable. Plus it'd be hard to link taxed items to budget items, espicailly since most people haven't a clue what parts of the government do.

'Tis true. When I lived in Europe, people get taxed for a lot of seemingly minute things. In Belgium, you get taxed for having a second car and having a radio in your car, in England you get taxed for owning a TV, and fuel prices throughout Europe are about $5.00 a gallon, most of it tax. There's a reason why US troops in Europe get gas coupons. And that's not even income tax. In most European countries people pay about half their income in taxes.

However, most of these European countries are social democracies, meaning that all that tax money is going into things like maintaining mass transit, providing cheap or even free medical care to everyone, very affordable higher-level education, and more. I'd like to see what some of our fellow furs from across the Pond have to say about taxes.

Meanwhile, in the US schools are closing or severely understaffed and underfunded, mental health clincs are closing, putting all of their patients out on the streets, all because governments can't pay for them any more. Where does that money come from? Taxes. And somehow in our infinite American wisdom we cut taxes as soon as our government has a surplus.

If I knew that my tax dollars would be providing a higher standard of living in our country, I probably wouldn't mind quite so much. Wouldn't stop me from exercising my Constitutional right to grouse.

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