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The Brunner Effect...(?)
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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 12:43 am    Post subject: The Brunner Effect...(?) Reply with quote

Just thinking the Basics of Universal Quantium Physics... The Brunner Effect must entail many theories/principals to come to a quasi-mechanical solution:

1) The Earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the Sun.

2) The Sun also rotates on its axis and orbits around the Galaxy (1 Eon = 1 solar cycle, which is about 250 million years or so.)

3) Every second, the universe expands an aproximate 7 miles.

4) Time is just another dimension to travel, once all the kinks are ironed out.

5) Time is an infinate multi-layered dimension, each layer is a path or as we know- time-line. Each time-line is a probable path or fork. That makes an infinate number of Tabithas, Sabrinas, Chrises, Me's, You's, and everything else... all doing basically the same thing, but all with different outcomes... Yes- there are an infinate number of Tabithas, some alive, some dead, but 1 (known one) doing time travel.

6) Time-lines are not erased, merely actions forces us into one route or another. Other timelines consists of different results of what (else) happened (if it did happened).

7) Antimatter is matter traveling backwards through time.

8)Einstein's theories of 2 pieces of matter can not occupy the same space at the same time, is not perfect. (Or else When Young and Old Tabithas met- this quadrant of the universe would have went BOOM!)

9) Taking #8 further: Though sharing the same DNA- Young Tabitha & Old Tabitha are not the same. Much of her older cells were created from the nutrients she ate through out life, and much of her original cells have been replaced (a process of every 7 or so years where cells replicate to replace themselves to be as new again. The process is not perfect, but it works enough to sustain life for several decades)

10) There are many other asspects to consider, but considering that #'s 1 - 3 are justified calculations, then #4 is easy.

But thats where problems starts to kick in. Like balls on a billard table, once you start to alter the path or positions of the balls during the game, you change the game (besides being called an outright cheat and a liar)!

Going back into time forces actions of those around you to start taking different paths, and thus different time-lines due to those changes.

But that only changes a small ripple in time itself, only a few time-lines are affects (when compared to the infinite number of time lines out there).

The Brunner Effect must be- the result of the actions that have been taken by a time altering event and the consequencing routes that occur thereafter. This is due to the displacement of mass and energy from the time travel and the added actions from the displaced object in space/time.

1 Tiny Goof- would have put Tabitha floating about in the hard vacuum of space several billion miles from Earth... and the story would have ended there...

...or Would it?
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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 2:00 am    Post subject: Re: The Brunner Effect...(?) Reply with quote

Elfen_Furry wrote:
8)Einstein's theories of 2 pieces of matter can not occupy the same space at the same time, is not perfect. (Or else When Young and Old Tabithas met- this quadrant of the universe would have went BOOM!)


Hardly - if this logic held, then you could never meet anybody. If you did meet someone, the two of you would occupy the same space and, as you say, BOOM! The catch: you are trying to use English to express an idea which is far better expressed in mathematics. The concept of space expressed in Eintein's theories has a very precise mathematical meaning, which the common English usage violates in at least three ways which I'm not competant to go into. (I take a crack at Einstein's General and Specific Theories of Relativity every ten months or so. I haven't yet cracked it, but I get closer every time! Someday, someday... I should live so long.) Incidentally, Einstein's theories, contrary to popular belief, do not deal with time-travel - not the way most people mean it when they use the phrase. Under Einstein's theories, leaving the temporal dimension isn't possible. You can't even change your direction of travel along it. All you can do is change your rate of travel - how fast your personal clock runs as opposed to the clock of your framework - and you can only change that one way, making it run slower than the outside clock. (Urgh! A relativist physicist would take me apart with a rusty spoon for this garbage! But I'm sorry - it's the best I can do. This is a horribly complex field, far outside my specialty, involving three fields of knowledge at least two of which I'm at the "baby-talk" stage in.)

The theory to which you are refering (not even a theory really, not in the classical sense - more of a conjecture) involves two or more discreet conglomerations of matter actually overlapping in four-dimensional space-time - something that doesn't apply in a macro-scale interaction (or to put it in English, a face-to-face meeting). Think about it - when you meet someone, do you actually get inside them - literally? That would be what it would take to have even a chance (however poor) of inadvertently fusing atoms - and most fusion reactions involving elements present in the human (and, presumably, in the furry) body would be massively energy-absorbing, rather than energy-liberating. So, no explosion. Most likely, you'd have a very messy, soupy result, with a vanishingly small possibility of the final outcome resembling a distinctly unappetizing popsicle.
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Tygon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: The Brunner Effect...(?) Reply with quote

[quote="Galadrion"]
Elfen_Furry wrote:
8)Einstein's theories of 2 pieces of matter can not occupy the same space at the same time, is not perfect. (Or else When Young and Old Tabithas met- this quadrant of the universe would have went BOOM!)


Hardly - if this logic held, then you could never meet anybody. If you did meet someone, the two of you would occupy the same space and, as you say, BOOM![quote]

Oh, you got this wrong, Galadrion. Though, Elfen_Furry also forget to write one word. The theory goes: The SAME 2 pieces of matter can not occupy the same space at the same time.

Meaning if I would bump two balls iron together nothing would happen (except a loud "clonk") but it I would go into the future and take one of the iron balls back with me to the present and then bump this one with its present counterpart together, that would destroy the universe, or whatever.

However, please don't ask me why. I know nothing about this theory. Just have heard it somewhere.

Alas, I don't know much about quantum physics. Everytime I read one of Michael Crichton's novels I'm getting a graps of it but it's never enough to hold on for long.

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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, not true - for the simple reason that, once the pieces of matter are seperated by moving along the temporal dimension, they are no longer the "same" pieces of matter. If it helps, think of this: should you view that iron sphere in four-space, a good analogy for it would be a four-dimensional piece of string. What you're doing when you take the sphere out of its normal path and bringing it into contact with itself at an earlier time (again, something that Einstein's theories preclude), is analogous to taking a length of string in three-space, looping it around, and tying it in a knot. (Indeed, if you accept time as a fourth spatial dimension, which is what's required for this thought-experiment to work, that's exactly what you're doing.) Does the act of tying a knot in a piece of string cause the string to explode? Not unless something very wierd is going on...

To state the relevent conjecture explicitly: the danger of time-travel (or any discontinuous travel - teleportation is covered as well) is that in such travel, multiple atoms may wind up occupying the same time-space locus, forcing atomic fusion. The problems with taking this "theory" and immediately jumping to "Time-travel = BOOM!" are:

1) Most matter, even "solid" matter, is mostly empty space. Rather than a fusion reaction, most likely you'd have two solid objects "shuffled" into each other, much like the three-dimensional equivalent of shuffling two packs of cards together. Messy, probably fatal, but not likely to be explosive.

2) In the unlikely event that two atoms do happen to fuse, the overwhelming majority of fusion reactions are massive energy-absorbing. This is especially true for most of the reactions involving elements commonly found in the human (or furry) body - the "Solar Pheonix" reaction which drives the sun involves four hydrogen nuclei, not two. A two-hydrogen reaction (producing helium) requires a huge energy input, meaning that if this reaction was widespread in such a merge, you'd wind up with a frozen mess.

3) Iron is particularly stable, atomically. Every fusion and fission reaction starting from iron is heavily endo-energetic. The only known way (at present) to pull energy from an iron nucleus is to involve it in an antimatter reaction - a tricky operation. This is especially relevent in the "Time-traveller's Meeting" scenario because iron is a major component in hemoglobin - it's the component that allows blood to function as it does.
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Tygon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, hey! As I said, I don't know any details about this. I just heard it somewhere Smile

Man, I guess if I explain to you how my Quantum Jump Engine works you will tear the theory totally apart Wink

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 4:18 pm    Post subject: Quantum Jump Engines, and other such MacGuffins Reply with quote

*Grin* Sorry about that, Tygon. No, I'll allow the theory on your QJE to go past - 'tis a plot device, and covered under the "Suspension of Disbelief" Act ratified by the InterTemporo-Spatial Guild of Science-Fiction Writers. I'll leave it be - unless you plan on invoking Miniature Giant Space Hamsters, or some such...

See, this is why I try to avoid writing futuristic sci-fi; I know just enough science to make it unwritable for me - and unreadable for anyone else - and not enough to make it my life's work.
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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: The Brunner Effect...(?) Reply with quote

Elfen_Furry wrote:


8)Einstein's theories of 2 pieces of matter can not occupy the same space at the same time, is not perfect. (Or else When Young and Old Tabithas met- this quadrant of the universe would have went BOOM!)


This part of quantum theory (based on both of Einstein's Special and general Relativity Theories) states:

Part A) (A Piece of) Matter can not occupy the 2 or more different places at the same time.

Part B) 2 or more different peices of matter can not occupy the same place at the same time.

Part C) Matter and Energy are different aspects of the same thing; so the word matter can be interchanged with engery... making this even more confusing...

Ok- I did leave some things out, and the last time I did any work on advanced physics was back in '81... I was trying to be more generalized to express a possible explaination to what the Brunner Effect is (was or will be?) to the extent of basic knownledge.

The Time Travel Aspect of Einstien's work comes from the "NUT" Paper (created from 3 physisists: Norstrom, Ulam and I forgot the 3rd.)... Which states that time being another dimension of this universe, can be traveled. Naturally, it is occuring- with matter and antimatter travleing in opposite but yet one-way directions. For matter to time travel to the past- it must somehow be converted to antimatter and then back into matter. Hence, it maybe as simple as that to do it, but technologically speaking- we cant. In Tabitha's Time, it may have been perfected (with that big crator nearby the second lab being a miscalculation of the grandest of scales!)- along with all the astrophysical calculations, engery dispersion/matrixies, and everything else involved.

But here's part of the answer and a problem: Matter traveling backwards through time is Anti-matter. The Time machine must then somehow convert matter into antimatter during its traveling phase and back into matter to reenter normal space/time. To everyone around, it would seem instantenous. To the person (or thing), would experience (to the abilities of their senses) heat and light. One slight miscalculation- remember the mentioning of the first time travel incident and the crator it created?

Part of the solution of part 3- about matter expanding, becuase its traveling backwards in time, antimatter contracts- so we dont have to worry about a 7 mile tall Tabithia wreaking hovock on the earth... (even if the beacon was off- historical records and memories of some monster attacking a small city in the mid west would have caught someone's eye in the time-tracking team!)

So, this would allow some interaction between the 2 Tabithas in the past. But this interaction (along wih many others) is what causes the Brunner Effect.
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Elfen_Furry
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Galadrion wrote:
<!--SNIP!>What you're doing when you take the sphere out of its normal path and bringing it into contact with itself at an earlier time (again, something that Einstein's theories preclude), is analogous to taking a length of string in three-space, looping it around, and tying it in a knot. (Indeed, if you accept time as a fourth spatial dimension, which is what's required for this thought-experiment to work, that's exactly what you're doing.) Does the act of tying a knot in a piece of string cause the string to explode? Not unless something very wierd is going on...


That one very weird thing would be Shrodinger's (?sp) Equation- which "predicts" the randomness of atoms, electrons and if taken at step futher- other subatomic particles. You stated many good points, but if we were able to manipulate Shrodinger's Equation- we would be GODS.

To tie that proverbal string into a knot and keep pulling on it- it would only take just a few adjustments of Shrodinger's Equation to allow the space inbetween the atoms slip by one another, and have the string un-knot itself. There might be some, bit a tiny bit of energy released, but nothing more.

Only in a case of a forming neutron star, where all the star's matter is compressed into a mass without space, does Shrodinger Equation = 0, and a huge explosion occurs during the event. No- I goofed, Shrodinger's Equation Approaches to Zero, and not (yet) = 0, thats where the explosion occurs. Afterwards, when it does equal zero, there is nothing left, sort to speak.

So, there is something going on here than just "Simple Einstein" going on... but nothing that can be called as "weird."

Just adding to the confusion...
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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Grin* Sounds to me like you've gotten further with Einstein, Schrodinger, and their co-disciplinarians than I have. That explanation (as much of it as I can follow, and you did a good job simplifying it) makes sense, but it's farther along the development trail than I could get on my own. (Theoretical physics makes my head spin. Oy!)

Oh, and since I forgot to say it earlier, welcome to the forum, Elfen Furry! Glad to have you here!

(Oh, and one other thing - for most people, me included, "simple Einstein" is weird enough. When you start going off into the dirivations and permutations that Schrodinger, Nordstrom, Dirac, and the others have contributed, "science" rapidly becomes indistiguishable from "mysticism". The stuff is fascinating to me, but once I get away from the level of explanation found in Scientific American, I'm totally out of my depth...)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2002 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Galadrion wrote:
Oh, and since I forgot to say it earlier, welcome to the forum, Elfen Furry! Glad to have you here!


Thank You! Glad to be here; though I'm here for someone else who is no longer on this mortal plane, but I'll do my best to be that other...

Galadrion wrote:
(Oh, and one other thing - for most people, me included, "simple Einstein" is weird enough. When you start going off into the dirivations and permutations that Schrodinger, Nordstrom, Dirac, and the others have contributed, "science" rapidly becomes indistiguishable from "mysticism". The stuff is fascinating to me, but once I get away from the level of explanation found in Scientific American, I'm totally out of my depth...)


The reason why "we" never finished college was because "we" couldn't explain "Simple Calculus", but aced the school's science courses... We've heard to excuse too many times of "How can you pass high level theorical science without a solid foundation in mathematics...?"

The academic mafia made sure we didn't last too long. They loss Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: The Brunner Effect...(?) Reply with quote

Elfen_Furry wrote:
...But here's part of the answer and a problem: Matter traveling backwards through time is Anti-matter.
Hello, Elfen_Furry!

Your statement is interesting to me; I hadn't heard that before. Antimatter particles have opposite charge from their "normal" counterparts, but opposite time arrow?

That seems to be better descriptive of a tachyon, no?

This is certainly not my field, but if you could point me in a good direction, I'd appreciate it.

I am new here, but a "regular" you could say on the ZZStudios board. I have also read many of the stories here---primarily Chris Foxx and other Sabrinaverse pieces---and enjoyed them.

Greetings, Galadrion and other friends here. Wink

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Time Travel Aspect of Einstien's work comes from the "NUT" Paper (created from 3 physisists: Norstrom, Ulam and I forgot the 3rd.)


That would be Teller. Ulam and Teller were both physicists on the Manhattan Project and the Super (Hydrogen bomb).

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LevelHead wrote:
Elfen_Furry wrote:
...But here's part of the answer and a problem: Matter traveling backwards through time is Anti-matter.
Hello, Elfen_Furry!

Your statement is interesting to me; I hadn't heard that before. Antimatter particles have opposite charge from their "normal" counterparts, but opposite time arrow?

That seems to be better descriptive of a tachyon, no?

This is certainly not my field, but if you could point me in a good direction, I'd appreciate it.


This is speculation on my part, but I love Advance Quantum Physics, especially when it reaches near mystical stages... Mind you, I have not touched this stuff since the mid 80's, so theories maybe outdated... Sad

Tachyons, traveling faster than light (and thus time), can, I believe, travel perpendicular to the space/time dimensions. Matter/Anti Matter, thus not being able to travel faster than light, can travel along the dimensional lines of Space/Time. Being able to travel perpendicular across Space/Time gives a traveller access to all the possisibilities of events at a given moment. (Interesting concept, not orginally thought up of...hmmmm....)

At the time I was doing this stuff- the internet was a very tiny and exclusive place. Glad to have been there, even though its evolved into what it was today. Ahh... The Good Old Days... But as for a webpage? I would not be able to give an answer for you...perhaps a search on M.Kaku...? I'll see what I can find and post it here.


LevelHead wrote:

I am new here, but a "regular" you could say on the ZZStudios board. I have also read many of the stories here---primarily Chris Foxx and other Sabrinaverse pieces---and enjoyed them.


Welll then, What can I say?... Welcome...!


whiterabbit wrote:
Elfen_Furry wrote:
The Time Travel Aspect of Einstien's work comes from the "NUT" Paper (created from 3 physisists: Norstrom, Ulam and I forgot the 3rd.)


That would be Teller. Ulam and Teller were both physicists on the Manhattan Project and the Super (Hydrogen bomb).


I know Teller, I know Teller too well... especially his Teller Institute For Gifted Children, and his work on the Star Wars Project and other things I should not be mentioning here or anyplace else if I value my life.... $2.83

It wasn't him, but I cant remember who it was. But for the reasons it was not him:
1)Space/Time work is not his forte- proving E=mc^2 is.
2)The NUT-Physicists were there years ago (seen the video) to recieve an Einstein award in 1980(?), and the 3rd that would have been Teller was a tall fellow, like Ulam.
3)The T-name was long and multi-sylable. Teller is short, like the froggish little man himself.
4)There are others, but I'm too tired to list them.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:33 pm    Post subject: Long-haired quantum quandaries Reply with quote

Elfen_Furry wrote:
This is speculation on my part, but I love Advance Quantum Physics, especially when it reaches near mystical stages...
It tends to do that quickly, doesn't it? Wink

But there is a distinction between "near-mystical" and "mystical"...and the world of quantum physics is not magical, just counter-intuitive (in a BIG way!).Wink
Elfen_Furry wrote:
Tachyons, traveling faster than light (and thus time), can, I believe, travel perpendicular to the space/time dimensions.
Perhaps a better portrayal of the theorized tachyon particle would be that it moves on the time arrow with a negative direction. Your phrase however reminded me of imaginary time, which could be said to be perpendicular to space-time dimensions.

We can now create anti-matter at will, and have done so. In fact, we kept a number of antimatter particles alive for days some years ago in a magnetic bottle before they ultimately leaked out and annihilated themselves with their normally-charged counterparts. So far, we cannot use them to produce energy as we spend a great deal of it creating and then containing them. But unlike the tachyon, antimatter is real and tangible (I wouldn't recommend actually touching it. Wink )

I don't think that the opposite-time-arrow explanation for antimatter has caught on; it seems to be more straightforward than that.

The Taub-NUT model that you're referring to, I think, is discussed (along with many other implications of time travel) here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time-travel-phys/
This is not for the faint of heart, or the short of attention span.

There is much discussion of Godel and Einstein and time travel elsewhere; you may find it interesting to enter the phrase "rotating universes and time travel" in Google or a similar engine.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I know Teller, I know Teller too well... especially his Teller Institute For Gifted Children, and his work on the Star Wars Project and other things I should not be mentioning here or anyplace else if I value my life.... $2.83

It wasn't him, but I cant remember who it was. But for the reasons it was not him:
1)Space/Time work is not his forte- proving E=mc^2 is.
2)The NUT-Physicists were there years ago (seen the video) to recieve an Einstein award in 1980(?), and the 3rd that would have been Teller was a tall fellow, like Ulam.
3)The T-name was long and multi-sylable. Teller is short, like the froggish little man himself.
4)There are others, but I'm too tired to list them.


Bah! I know just enough about physics to be dangerous. Too young to have really studied anything about it, anyway. I'm just 20. And never studied any physics save for what I have in a few nuke books.

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