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| Who are you supporting in the upcoming election? |
| Kerry |
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20% |
[ 5 ] |
| Bush |
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56% |
[ 14 ] |
| Nadar |
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8% |
[ 2 ] |
| Stump |
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16% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 25 |
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| Author |
Message |
Thane
Registered User
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 275
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 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:02 am Post subject: |
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Gryphon -
In answer to your question, this topic included firearms because it is a major issue in this election, believe it or not. A particular gun control law (or set of laws - I'm not too sure on the specifics) is set to "sunset" this fall. Gun ban activists already are working on an even stricter law to replace it, one that Bush is almost certain to veto, and Kerry is almost certain to sign (judging from his past voting record). A discussion of abortion would be equally valid here, for the same reason - it pertains to this election. The same can be said for oil policy, taxes, the war in Iraq, the military, or any of a dozen other topics.
As for your comment about who you'd rather have firearms....
I am a firm believer in training children in the proper use of firearms. Ever since my grandfather took me out shooting his .22 rifle... no, even before that, with his little BB gun, I have had the rules, the "do's and don'ts" of shooting ingrained in me, to the point that certain habits are reflex now. Example - very rare is it that I do not check the chamber when I pick up a weapon, so that a round in the chamber will not be accidentally fired.
So in this, I agree with you - people educated properly about firearms are far safer than those who learn from Hollywood.
Tying this in to gun control laws, and the election.....
It has been proven, again and again, that making the law stricter on honest citizens only enourages the criminal element. NYC, Washinton DC, and places with equally strict firearms legislation are hotbeds of violent crime - the citizens who are educated about firearms are unable to defend themselves against the violent idiots who learned about guns from Hollywood. The criminal element, not known for its scholarly habits, still has tremendous access to weapons, while the honest citizen, knowledgeable about what a gun can and cannot do, is not allowed to adequately defend himself and others without himself becoming a criminal.
In short, gun control encourages the people you don't want to have guns, while punishing the people you do.
I could spend all day here typing various words to this effect (you mean I haven't already spent all day?  ), but there's enough stuff out there that I'd give myself carpal tunnel syndrome/tendonitis before I even got through half of it. So here....these people have already typed this stuff up and put it on the Internet, so I don't have to: http://keepandbeararms.com .
Another useful link is here. Be warned, though....sarcasm may be present...
::yawn::
About time to finish checking up my list of comics, so I'm gonna cut my rant short (if this is short, you should see my long rants!  ). I know one of the moderators said that they'd close this topic in 24 hours....be a darn shame to do so, in my opinion - there's been some pretty good discussion here. Oh well... |
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Thane
Registered User
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| ironbadger wrote: |
I mentioned that my only real concern was retaining first amendment rights, and the rest, (abortion, economy, etc.) wasn't of much interest to me. |
The point being, Second Amendment rights are the insurance to make sure that the other rights are retained. After all, if the populace has no way of retaliating against tyranny, tyranny has license. And if this comment has little bearing on the point you were trying to make...oh well. I still think it needed making anyway..
| ironbadger wrote: |
As for education?
Theres been numerous attempts by republicans to introduce basic firearms safety classes in public schools-
Democrats shoot those down faster than you can blink, and claim its "irresponsible" to teach firearms safety in schools....
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Well, if they go about teaching firearm safety like they've taught "safe sex," then no wonder they're concerned! I mean... we have classes about "safe sex," yet teen pregnancy and STDs have gone up...
Teach that there are absolutes. You absolutely do not have sex before marriage - that is the best way to avoid STDs and children out of wedlock. You absolutely do not violate the rules of firearm safety, or you run the risk of accidentally killing/injuring yourself (or your friend, your dog, etc.). But given the educational establishment's current poor record, I can certainly understand this.
On the other hand, they (the Democrats) also fight organizations such as the NRA, which has a far better record than the schools, and which has a vested interest in making sure people are sensible about firearms... you get the impression that they want people to be afraid of guns, not knowledgeable about them.
| ironbadger wrote: |
Tools which can be misused- as can any common kitchen knife or a rock lying on the ground.
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Yep. Or a car. I've lost two friends to auto accidents, and nearly lost several more. Some of my acquaintences have lost many more than that. But I've lost exactly zero to any sort of firearms incident.
| ironbadger wrote: |
And many states now require a safety course before you can purchase a gun anyway, so whats the problem?
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Texas, for one, does not require a safety course for gun ownership. It is assumed that the average adult is smart enough to figure out the do's and don'ts. Don't point it at another person, don't look down the barrel when it's loaded, etc. Texas, does, however, mandate a hunter safety course, because people from the city do not always realize some of the dangers/hazards of the "back woods," just as a country boy is relatively ignorant of "the bad parts of town." Add to this the maze that is "wildlife law," and you do need a class to get the relevant bits.
If you're not planning on hunting, and just want the pistol/rifle/shotgun for purely recreational (target) shooting or home defense, there is comparitively little bureaucratic hassle. |
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The Gryphon
Registered User
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 134
Location: Everywhere, yet no where.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Texas, for one, does not require a safety course for gun ownership. It is assumed that the average adult is smart enough to figure out the do's and don'ts. Don't point it at another person, don't look down the barrel when it's loaded, etc. Texas, does, however, mandate a hunter safety course, because people from the city do not always realize some of the dangers/hazards of the "back woods," just as a country boy is relatively ignorant of "the bad parts of town." Add to this the maze that is "wildlife law," and you do need a class to get the relevant bits.
If you're not planning on hunting, and just want the pistol/rifle/shotgun for purely recreational (target) shooting or home defense, there is comparitively little bureaucratic hassle. |
You know, Idaho's Hunter's Safety course (that I had to take at the age of 21 with a bunch of 8 year olds, but that's a WHOLE 'nother story  ) was about 90 percent gun safety and although I'd grown up shooting at targets my whole life (father is a major gun oficiando... trades them for sport, yada yada) I learned a lot from that class.
I own a couple of my own guns... and if I still do when I have children they will learn gun safety and how to operate them because in my opinion, I'd rather have them using them under my supervision than without. Same with my husband someday. If he doesn't know guns, he will at least know how to operate whatever ones I keep in the house.
Education, if done properly could solve a whole bunch of problems. If the government won't enforce it, I'll do what I can in my own little world.
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Curious about Gryphon? Check out her Journal. |
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Thane
Registered User
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| The Gryphon wrote: | I own a couple of my own guns... and if I still do when I have children they will learn gun safety and how to operate them because in my opinion, I'd rather have them using them under my supervision than without. Same with my husband someday. If he doesn't know guns, he will at least know how to operate whatever ones I keep in the house.
Education, if done properly could solve a whole bunch of problems. If the government won't enforce it, I'll do what I can in my own little world. |
And there is the key to true firearms safety - responsibility. In particular, parental responsibility.
My apologies if I gave the impression that I was against firearms education. I am all for it. But I would not trust the schools as they are now to responsibly teach gun safety, save maybe within Junior ROTC programs.
What I would be far more likely to endorse would be more along the lines of "contracting out" firearms safety classes to organizations such as the National Rifle Association, organizations that require their instructors to complete stringent courses themselves. No government agencies here - it needs to be a "third party" so to speak.
I also wonder if it would be better to have firearms safety courses in school be electives for the students, rather than mandatory. Hopefully then, it would seem far more a privilege and less of a "school thing," and thus less* likely to be disregarded. [*edit - accidentally typed "more" instead of "less"...sorry for any confusion]
But again, I stress that even an excellent firearms safety course in school would at best be a meager substitute for family instruction and more personalized classes with certified instructors. Only there can responsibility be truly enforced.
Last edited by Thane on Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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elMaxx
Administrator
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 1127
Location: Land of Mud
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Just a comment... I am not a US citizen, BUT i am well aware that whatever happens in the US, will affect here. that's for sure, so that gives me certain right to express myself, or so i suppose... But this can also be ignored, which is also ok by me.
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Over here there are a lot of people, that would like the government to provide EVERYTHING for themselves, a good job, a good house, vacations, a car, a nice car i might add, security, a stable economy... but that's not how things work.
Unfortunatelly, the president will not be issued a red cape, red shinny trousers over a light blue spandex... and change the world for the better in a day or so...
But the second next good thing will be given, a group of people he claims he can work with, a plan, and fortunatelly, selflessness and determination to give the best of himself for 4 years. A congress elected by the people to provide regulations and laws to cover the needs of most of the people. Plans, projects and whatnots to keep things rolling... a judicial and law enforcement branch of the government to at least try to keep you all safe... and so on.
Let me do a comparison, with 750+ users... its rather hard to keep track of things, i'm really happy that PF keeps growing, but other stuff like, say, Real Life, keeps Whip from doing PF related stuff, he delegated some things to me, but i also need help from Josh, Kay, hikaru, Grant, Solis, Skunky, Elfen, etc.... and so on.
now imagine having to keep 360 million americans from harming themselves?
just for one man!
I have to add something, President Bush has done one hell of a job. (hint to who would my vote go to IF i was a US citizen)
and, he has something clear, support for the America's Free Commerce Treaty. And keep terrorists from OUR backs.
Imagine what continental america as one could do to itself? think of the possibilities... amazing.
On the US candidate choices...
For me, Mr. Kerry has absolutelly nothing to argue against Mr. Bush.
Personally i think that it is a disgrace to make less of the military institution for his own goals. Its... just not honorable. At least, Mr. Bush gives the military its place.
About the Abu Grahib prison stuff, i've had it with the media.... damn bastards are making wood of the fallen tree. what a bunch of old crows, getting food off corpses. Disgusting. Fahrenheit 9/11... no comments.
I recall a similar case to Abu prison... in WWII, when the "fight" as moonbats say had a meaning, George S. Patton, kicked a battle stressed soldier out of the hospital. He was to apologize for that... ok... For putting someone back in line... Even German high command wouldn't believe it... Anyway, iraqi prisoners are not there for exactly being drunk in a public place, COME OOOON!!!
isn't terrorism a threat to all of us?
Guatemala lived 30 years of that. the US helped.
We faced horrible tragedy in modern history, landslides, hurricanes, earthquakes, who steps up to the plate to give a hand? the US.
Sure, keep voting for stump. I hope you guys feel proud of that. Least you could do is support your country.
If you would like to reply to this, please email or IM it to me, i would love to debate this privatelly.
Take care.
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Cooldrew100
Registered User
Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Wherever I happen to be!
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if I could vote (too young) I'd vote for Bush. He's made some mistakes, but what politician can honestly say they haven't. I haven't heard a whole lot from Kerry's side as to their goals.
_________________
Greatest flash-animation site in existance.
My furry code of DOOM! FIHp3arw A-- C->+ D- H++ M- P->+ R- T++ W Z? !S RLCT/U a- cn++ d++>++++ e- f--> h* i+ j->+ p+ sm-
Thanks to Scifer for the avatar! |
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Jon_K
Registered User
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ) People site statistics that guns kill people |
Guns don't kill people.
People kill people.
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Thane
Registered User
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Jon_K wrote: | | Quote: | | ) People site statistics that guns kill people |
Guns don't kill people.
People kill people. |
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Jon_K
Registered User
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Elfen_Furry wrote: | Now lets take an extreme case- Vermont.
Carry any weapon, any time, any where, concealed or not. Registration-none. Application- none. Inspection- none. Get pulled over by hiway patrol- they require you to hand over your license, registration, insurance and weapon(s)- if any. Full cooperation with te boys- they'll let you go with just a verbal warning... they are real nice up there. Give them a hard time... you aint seeing the light of day for the next 10 years. But...
Crime Rate in Vermont- Single Digit Factor below 3%.
I hear the same is true for places like Texas, Missouri and many others.
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It's not the same in texas.
Actually, you have to register your gun which is about 150-200 bucks. (Not bad)
Then you have to go through a training course to be able to wear it in plain view, anywhere, anytime.
You are forbidden to wear it concealed at any time, however. (yeah f-ck that, my dad keeps his in his black bag (it's a big black thing like college professors carry), he works in a hospital, it stays in there all day, all the time, in that bag (its a big crime to bring a gun in to a hospital)
For obvious reasons, my dads hospital, and my dads name will remain unnamed.
You can go to a gunrange for free - well - the gunrange can charge what they want, but theres no legal laws for registration or some bs
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Elfen_Furry
Moderator
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2601
Location: NYC NY
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| The Gryphon wrote: | How'd this topic get on guns anyhow?
Elfen has a point but I've heard some pretty convincing arguments on the opposing side too. The biggest issue in my opinion is education. I'd rather be around some one who has seen what kind of damage f.irearms will do and has had someone explain how to use them properly than a person who's only seen them in movies and has been told that they are evil.
Who's gonna be more aware of how dangerous they are when they get their hands on one eventually?. |
History's biggest lesson...
Before the JFK assassination, every school in the country, from elementary to college level, had a "S.hooting & Target Team." Education and Safety as well as mechanics and maintenence was taught in these afterschool / varsity sports team. And it was free. Hell, before 11/63, one can go to school as a student with enough a.rms to hold off the local sheriff's dept. and no one would think nothing of it!
School proceedure back then was if you brought a.rms to the school- you turn it in to the main office and they will put it away for safe keeping (in the school vault or other secure place), and you would be given a reciept. At the end of the day- you turn in the reciept and you get your stuff back- no questions asked.
But thanks to Lee Harvey and friends (and a couple of other incidences involving sniper action), all this is now gone.
Its funny, in a way. In the basement of my old school (Brooklyn Technical HS), there is an unused room. Its the old S.hooting Target Team's s.hooting range. Back then, the Shortfellow Society used it for Archery. I can almost bet that in other schools across the country, there are other such ranges, or rooms converted from these spaces. but for their original use- no more.
Too bad to. This could be a great asset to the nation. A Nation of Crazed and Armed Lunitics, but Fully Trained A.rmed Lunitics...
{Modified to go past through the firewall}
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Flint
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Hey. that reminds me of the best thought i've had in a long, long time: WHY I DON'T (and would never, even if everywhere else sunk under the ocean) LIVE IN AMERICA!
Why stay and complain about guns and gangs when the answer is simple: get the hell out of there and let america destroy itself! It's perfectly capable, give it a week or two. Hasn't America got enough bloody guns already? Around here, all I have to worry about is Des' psychotic rampages *dodges bayonet*.
P.S. The last thing you guys need is another Bush in the rose garden. |
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Cateagle
Site Owner
Joined: 20 Nov 2000
Posts: 1004
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| The Gryphon wrote: | | How'd this topic get on guns anyhow? |
Because for some of us it's one of the main litmus tests for a candidate, "Does he trust the citizens with the power to look after themselves and their interests?" If he doesn't, why should I entrust him with the responsibility for the country? IMHO, considering that pro-gun control votes are among the very few votes Kerry has made this year (including support for his sponsor's (E. M. Kennedy) efforts to ban hunting ammunition as "cop killers") and his "Perfect" rating by HCI, I'd be hard pressed to vote for him already. When I look at his other votes/stands, iI can't say there's any way I'd vote for him at this point, even though there's a lot that this president has done that I neither like nor agree with.
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Thane
Registered User
Joined: 31 Mar 2004
Posts: 275
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Flint wrote: | Hey. that reminds me of the best thought i've had in a long, long time: WHY I DON'T (and would never, even if everywhere else sunk under the ocean) LIVE IN AMERICA!
Why stay and complain about guns and gangs when the answer is simple: get the hell out of there and let america destroy itself! It's perfectly capable, give it a week or two. Hasn't America got enough bloody guns already? Around here, all I have to worry about is Des' psychotic rampages *dodges bayonet*.
P.S. The last thing you guys need is another Bush in the rose garden. |
And there, Flint, you have missed the point. Guns don't make America more dangerous, they make America safer. It may seem counterintuitive, but the explanation is pretty simple.
In places where everyone has guns, the criminals are scared of the honest folk. No one wants to become a violent criminal, because they know that's one of the surest ways to end up crippled or dead.
Don't believe Hollywood's portrayal of gun owners. I own guns. So do both my parents, all of my grandparents, and many of my aunts, uncles, and cousins. To the best of my knowledge, not a single one of them has ever used a gun for anything other than target practice or hunting. Why? Because criminals know that people like me and my family will defend our homes, our family, and our property. The criminals are scared. The honest folk are not. And that's the way it should be. |
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quidni
Registered User
Joined: 07 Apr 2004
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Thane wrote: | Guns don't make America more dangerous, they make America safer. It may seem counterintuitive, but the explanation is pretty simple.
In places where everyone has guns, the criminals are scared of the honest folk. No one wants to become a violent criminal, because they know that's one of the surest ways to end up crippled or dead. |
http://www.gunowners.org/op0220.htm
is an excellent example of this.
No, I don't live in Kennesaw, Georgia. But I am a gun owner, who enjoys the sport of punching holes in paper from a distance. As a somewhat-petite, 5'2" woman, I also like the fact that this hobby/sport provides me with a means of self defense and the defense of my loved ones if/when the need ever arises.
I don't agree with "Dubya" on a number of things, but my vote is for Bush, since I don't trust Kerry with my basic 2nd Amendment rights.
And I appreciate how civil this discussion has remained. 
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quidni? quia!
Last edited by quidni on Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Cateagle
Site Owner
Joined: 20 Nov 2000
Posts: 1004
Location: Ft. Worth, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Flint wrote: | Hey. that reminds me of the best thought i've had in a long, long time: WHY I DON'T (and would never, even if everywhere else sunk under the ocean) LIVE IN AMERICA!
Why stay and complain about guns and gangs when the answer is simple: get the hell out of there and let america destroy itself! It's perfectly capable, give it a week or two. Hasn't America got enough bloody guns already? Around here, all I have to worry about is Des' psychotic rampages *dodges bayonet*.
P.S. The last thing you guys need is another Bush in the rose garden. |
With an armed populace, the gangs wouldn't be a problem. Cf. who didn't get robbed during the Rodney King riots in LA - the shop owners who were armed and prepared to defend their property. We've also had at least one case in the last century where an armed populace took back their county from the thugocracy that had taken it over (Athens, TN - 1946). There are also a considerable number of stories of legally armed folk who, just by being armed, prevented an altercation from escalating. Carrying a firearm does not mean using it; I could cheerfully go for peace-bonding. However, I would much rather have one and not need it than need one and not have one.
Methinks thou hast been deluded by the absurd depictions promulgated by Hollywood. Of course, in his autobiography, Charleton Heston recounts how a large number of his Liberal friends wanted to "borrow" firearms during the Rodney King riots.
Finally, I'll leave you with this thought from a lady of my acquaintance: "Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't."
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