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Nameless
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Joined: 06 Sep 2002
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Location: Vienna, Austria
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 Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:49 am Post subject: |
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95% of the time I write in sequence, but not always.
I wrote the first two chapters (of Act 1) of SiasfL before I started on the prologue and I have written a few scenes that will happen later on.
On the other hand, I intended originally intended Act 0 to be just a few opening paragraphs or maybe one chapter, not five...
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Elfen_Furry
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Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 2601
Location: NYC NY
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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I write in squence, following the basic oultline of the story and see how it goes from there. Secondly, I try to write within a 3 week time period between chapters. Currently, I might be technically ahead in this schedule, I am falling behind in a bit on this (3rd week and no update yet).
Only in a couple of stories have I put together out of sequence, but then I find myself waiting to place the out of place chapter back into where it belongs. That can be a problem. So its best to keep things in order.
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Chris Regan
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Joined: 23 Jun 2001
Posts: 138
Location: Ridgecrest, Ca.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Aramis Dagaz wrote: | Since we're on the topic of how long it takes to write a story, I'd like to post a related question:
When writing, do you write the story in the order it will be published (eg, write chapter 1 before writing on chapter 2, write chapter 2 before writing chapter 3, and so on), or do you allow yourself to write other chapters if your muse takes you there (you're writing chapter 3, but suddenly write a piece planned for chapter 5 because it suddenly hit you)? What are your reasons for doing so?
For me, I tend to write one chapter at a time, in the order my readers will read them in. I do this because while recording ideas is fine, I don't want to get too side-tracked writing chapters that are currently not connected to the story. I don't want to end up having chapters 10-15 ready to go but chapter 3 isn't even in first draft yet. Also, as I write, the direction of the plot may take a different path than originally planned, and I don't want to have to throw out or seriously rework a chapter written earlier. |
Hi Aramis Dagaz, With me the first draft looks like Swiss cheese with holes of all sizes, even if I have one line ideas of what the action is. I've found that scenes I thought would be in say chapter 7, fleshed out chapter
5, an introduced and gave a fuller picture of some characters than when I had wrotethe chapter originally.
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Chris Regan
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Joined: 23 Jun 2001
Posts: 138
Location: Ridgecrest, Ca.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Aramis, The first step is the story Idea (what the basic story Plot is about your beginning, middle, end) , then there is the stops along the way known as Plot Points. For any story, script, novel these are what brings your characters to life which from your post you already know.
It depends on the person, I keep a time line which helps me keep track of which chapter is 1,2,3, ect. I get ideas for other chapters all the time, I keep a pad and something to write with on me at all time for I never know when an idea will hit me and I need to jot it down. I have books of Ideas that I'm working on putting in the computer right now.
I'm glad you have that type of logical mind, I don't things around me at any given tiime can create an idea for a chapter on the story I'm working on, a piece of poetry or a totallydifferent story all together.
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Styx
Site Owner
Joined: 25 Dec 2002
Posts: 3176
Location: West Covina, California
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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I highly recommend doing an outline first, I have only written two stories but the fist one was a short without an outline and the second was much longer and with an outline. Even though the second was longer, once I had the outline done it was far easier to stay on track then it was with the shorter first story my muse (who has been MIA for some time now) kept handing me different tangents to trip me up on it.
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Foxeris
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Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 100
Location: No longer on this forum...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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I'll be honest, I both do, and do not outline... though I always know where the end is going to be when I start (though it's been know to change as the story progesses).
Outlines are usefull to help you structure and control the story, it lets you get most of the hard work plotting done ahead of time and flush out the basic situation.
Working without an outline means you end up going all over the place, maybe discovering new directions and characters before finaly getting to the end. In general you'll have to trim more from a story writen this way then with an outline.
Each method has there advantages. For a novel I'll usual outline it, but just go natural for a short story and novelas. |
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gnaP
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Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Redlands CA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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I have tried my hand at writing and still having trouble even with an outline and a clear idea of where I want it to go, I have gotten to a point in the prologue where I hit a dead end even though I know what I want. And worst of all, when ever I read what I have written so far I have noticed a huge similarity between my prologue and From the Depth to Heights prologue. I know I am not doing this intentionally, but every time I rewrite the thing, it always ends up about the same. Any advice on how to remedy this?
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Chris Regan
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Joined: 23 Jun 2001
Posts: 138
Location: Ridgecrest, Ca.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have lost track of how many times I have rewrote a story.
I find it easier if I create a list of quetions I want answered.
what if so in so is deeper in love with whats his name but doesn't see it till after his supposed death or what if so in so finds that she is PG after his death. But he comes back but she doesn't know it and the ones around her that do keep it from her.
you could do this by the numbers too! Just by creating a time line with the names of the ruff chapters so when you start to assemble the story you have a blue print.
It's like being in a maze with many ways to get out you just have to figure out which route you want to take.
Then I write the charter Bio's and the ruff out line for each chapter.
because some times things in the bio's will fit into the story with a little reworking.
I don't write in a logicl way these are just some things I found that help.
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ScottyDM
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Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1142
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:03 am Post subject: |
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Novels
Some people will plan every last detail and do buckets of research before they write anything. Others will get these really cool characters kickin' around in their skulls, put them in a situation, then see what develops. The uber-planners spend quite awhile doing what looks like nothing before they start writing, but they require a lot less revision. The seat of the pants writers get the first draft finished quickly, but then they end up tossing out 50%, and doing several more major rewrites. Most writers are somewhere in the middle. Neither way is superior to the other, just different.
| Hilari Bell wrote: | | You should outline. You should write spontaneously. This one is based on the fallacy that everyone in the world is like the speaker—and let's face it, who doesn't succumb to that? I'm always amazed when people don't think like me, react like me, agree with me and vote like me. They also don't always work the same way I do.... |
From her essay, Exploding Writing Myths.
Short Stories
Outlines matter less in short stories. We do outline, but I suspect most of it happens internally rather than being written down. Either the basic idea works or it doesn't.
Serialized Stories
This is really a novel. One in which you do not get a chance at a second draft. If you start publishing the first chapters before you finish the final chapter, then you had better have a solid outline or you'll probably end up writing yourself into a corner.
If you write the whole thing, maybe do one or two overall revisions to tighten up the story, then start publishing chapters as you do final revisions on each chapter, you don't need a tight outline--just some patience.
Revision
One of the most powerful tools a writer has is revision and any writer who thinks their first draft is publishable quality (even if self-publishing to their website) is delusional.
Back in 1973 Robert A Heinlein gave his famous Five Rules for writing fiction. | R A Heinlein wrote: | - You must write.
- You must finish what you write.
- You must refrain from rewriting except to editorial order.
- You must put it on the market.
- You must keep it on the market until sold.
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Rule #3 has caused endless problems with beginners who feel the first draft is the best draft and they should not touch their own work. Darrell Schweitzer feels Heinlein's third rule is "appalling rubbish" (and he has some reservations about the fifth rule too). See sections I and V of his essay The Story of a Revision. Robert J Sawyer is a lot more constructive with his criticism of Heinlein's third rule in his essay Heinlein's Rules. I can get behind the idea of, "Don't tinker endlessly with your story." Unless you have learned some new new technique, tinkering is useless. By the way, looking for these articles I found many that spoke of Heinlein revising his own stories, sometimes after he sold them the first time.
Hilari Bell has some useful advice in her essay The Editor is Never Wrong about when to follow revision advice and when to reject it.
Story Construction
There are two necessary skill sets to writing a compelling long story (novel or serialized story): story telling skills and writing skills. The outline helps us construct the story--that is, it helps us realize our story telling skills. The basic plot can be simple, as long as the overall story contains subplots that enrich the reader's experience. During writing the focus is on small structures like scenes and paragraphs and it becomes easy to lose sight of the story structure.
An excellent technique to keep the reader interested is to maintain tension by having several plot threads running at once. Just as things get tense, switch to the other plot thread. A problem I've seen with some serial stories is a single plot line that advances linearly. To produce the chapter each month it's easy for an author to simply pick up the story from the previous month's chapter and continue. Even worse is when the author doesn't seem to know where he's going and he produces a scene (or a whole chapter) that is little more than filler.
The revision process can fix these problems, but with a serialized story you cannot really go back and revise. Having an outline with which to construct your plot and subplots becomes critical.
The Badger's Projects
- My first short story was really just an elaborate retelling of a joke. Mercifully, it is short. Published on my site as The Rainbow Bridge.
- I have a completed novella, 7 chapters totaling about 23,000 words. It grew organically from some really cool characters, so it's not a total bomb, but it needs a rewrite. The biggest large-scale problem is that it's a simple linear plot and tension evaporates as fast as I dream it up. Several small-scale errors and some of the characters and locations need to be redesigned. Published on my site as Nancy and the Ferrets.
- I have an unfinished sequel to that novella, which I haven't touched it in about 2 years. I needed to learn some story telling techniques. Now that I can see what's wrong with it, I need to decide how to fix it. First 3 chapters of 7, published on my site as Milliscent Awakens.
- I have a short story that has grown to novella size, but because of poor story telling skills the writing stalled. I can now see how to fix it and it might even be worthy of a novel. Unpublished with a working title of Melpomene's Daughter.
- Melpomene's Daughter has spawned another short story. Completed and published on my site as Beach Tour.
- I've got a novel in the planning stages. Unpublished with a working title of Instinct and Intellect, or A Life for Rent.
- That unwritten novel has spun out two short stories which will later be sucked back into the novel. One is published to my site as Family Matters and the other published to the Anthrofiction Network website as the sample story Family Christmas.
- I have a half-finished short story that I started as a lark. Unpublished with a working title of 'Round the World with Wee Mr. Winkle. Despite the silliness--it reads like a story for eight-year olds who wallow in PG-13 material--I should finish it just to say I did.
- I've published a "lost scene" from one of my short stories to Steve Abbott's Anthrofiction.com website as Family Matters - The Lost Scene.
- Of course I keep a file of story ideas.
I need to take some of Mr. Heinlein's advice. Specifically I need to finish a few projects and I should put a few things on the market to gage reaction. Melpomene's Daughter could have commercial appeal if I can beat it down to a short story; I have high hopes for Instinct and Intellect, but that is a Big Project; and I have a couple of short story ideas (last bullet) that should have commercial appeal.
The Badger's Future
Nancy and the Ferrets and Milliscent Awakens was to be part of a serialized story I was going to self-publish to my website. Before I put any real effort into expanding that series I want to outline the whole thing. It will follow Milli's growth from 16 to 18, so I suppose it's a coming of age story. If I do resume self-publishing it to my site, I'll only post one "book" at a time rather than a chapter at a time.
Each month I try to learn some new skill and improve my writing.
Scotty
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ScottyDM
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Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1142
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Regan wrote: | | I have lost track of how many times I have rewrote a story. |
I find that I can only do so many revisions. I get to a point where the story/chapter/scene is as good as I can write it at that stage of my ability. A year later I may have learned new techniques and when I look back I see "new" flaws.
| Chris Regan wrote: | I find it easier if I create a list of quetions I want answered.
what if so in so is deeper in love with whats his name but doesn't see it till after his supposed death or what if so in so finds that she is PG after his death. But he comes back but she doesn't know it and the ones around her that do keep it from her. |
I had something like this in mind when I created my latest short story. What presenters call "talking points" (nasty business-speak). For Bobby and Penny I need to cover points A, B, C, and D. With Paris and Brigett and I need to cover points E, F, G, and H. Everything else was: reinforcement, foreshadowning, color, or transitions from point to point.
The first scene focused too much on Mia, who's important only in that she introduces the characters and the conflict. The original scene was 647 words, but I managed to cut it to 557 words using small-scale editing techniques. By creating a list of what was important and what I could discard, I further cut the scene to 394 words. While it was fun to write a character who acts bipolar: jumping from angry, to crazy, to worried, to seductive in only two pages, it was too distracting to the story.
| Chris Regan wrote: | | you could do this by the numbers too! Just by creating a time line with the names of the ruff chapters so when you start to assemble the story you have a blue print. |
Pictoral timelines can be huge!
Chris, want to write a short story for the anthrofiction contest?
Scotty
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| Kantaro wrote: | | Almost real enough to be considered non-fiction, if it weren't made up. |
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Rabbit
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Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 345
Location: Middle Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must refrain from rewriting except to editorial order.
4. You must put it on the market.
5. You must keep it on the market until sold. |
I've had trouble with all five rules, but 3, 4 and 5 are my biggest bugaboos. I've got several novels I'm not marketing, for example, and should be. Plus a fair dozen shorts, all of them quite salable. Why? I spend all my limited time writing new stuff! Reccently I engaged an agent; he sold a couple shorts to Amazon for me, but just wrote me a letter indicating he wasn't sure if he wanted to continue on the job or not. <sigh>.
I never outline anything _on paper_. But, I also try not to begin any tale until I know where and how I plan to end it. Having an ending firmly in mind gives me the "compass" I need to keep things on track, and keep me pushing in the right direction. In recent years, I find that I hardly need to rewrite at all. |
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ScottyDM
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Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 1142
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Rabbit wrote: | | Quote: |
1. You must write.
2. You must finish what you write.
3. You must refrain from rewriting except to editorial order.
4. You must put it on the market.
5. You must keep it on the market until sold. |
I've had trouble with all five rules, but 3, 4 and 5 are my biggest bugaboos. I've got several novels I'm not marketing, for example, and should be. Plus a fair dozen shorts, all of them quite salable. Why? I spend all my limited time writing new stuff! Reccently I engaged an agent; he sold a couple shorts to Amazon for me, but just wrote me a letter indicating he wasn't sure if he wanted to continue on the job or not. <sigh>. |
By those comments I'll take it to mean that you have trouble following Mr. Heinlein's advice. I think the problem Darrell Schweitzer has with rules 3 and 5 is that he thinks we should not follow them. See The Story of a Revision.
Schweitzer makes a good point about rule 3, writing is not like furniture making. And Heinlein is way off base if he thinks a furniture maker never builds a prototype out of cheap wood that's not for display in his showroom. Heinlein is further off base if he thinks writing and furniture making require the same creation and revision skills. Besides, Heinlein did revise his stories.
On rule 5, Schweitzer makes the point that maybe the "dogs" should not see the light of publication. He writes, "Remember that everything you publish will be, for some reader, the first thing of yours that reader has seen. Try to make sure it's not the last." Patricia Duffy brings it into tighter focus in her essay, Conventional Advice that Wouldn't Work for Me. In the last section she writes, "Although there are a lot of magazine markets for speculative short fiction, there are actually relatively few professional markets for speculative short fiction of any given type." So if the three magazines who publish your genre of short story don't take it, then it's very unlikely anyone else will.
In Robert Sawyer's essay Heinlein's Rules, he writes, "Heinlein used to say he had no qualms about giving away these rules, even though they explained how you could become his direct competitor, because he knew that almost no one would follow their advice." He adds a sixth rule then he goes on to calculate that if half the would-be writers drop out at each step, you'd end up with only 1% who will do them all. But I had a thought, suppose Heinlein knew his third rule was pure crap. There are beginning writers who are unable to progress because they refuse to revise and therefore are unteachable. "But Robert Heinlein, the single greatest sci-fi writer ever, said 'do not revise'." What a nasty (and sneaky) way to thin the ranks of future sci-fi writers.  Mephistopheles would be proud.
To revisit this:
| ScottyDM wrote: | | Chris Regan wrote: | | I have lost track of how many times I have rewrote a story. |
I find that I can only do so many revisions. I get to a point where the story/chapter/scene is as good as I can write it at that stage of my ability. A year later I may have learned new techniques and when I look back I see "new" flaws. |
See Sawyer's comments on Heinlein's third rule.
I've been tinkering with the final sentence of my first scene:
| In v1, Mia says: wrote: | | “Well, there’s strawberries and yogurt….” |
That scene vanished for v2 and v3, but came back in v4 with the sentence unmodified and it remained unmodified until v7.
| In v7, Mia says: wrote: | | “There is strawberries and yogurt….” |
I un-contracted "there's" because Mia is Finnish so she's an ESL girl and she's not comfortable with contractions. I was also eliminating extra words.
In v8 I got to wondering, is/are "strawberries and yogurt" singular or plural? Briefly I had:
| In v8.0, Mia says: wrote: | | “There are strawberries and yogurt….” |
Then I decided to eliminate the problem and twist it into a question with:
| In v8.1, Mia says: wrote: | | “You like strawberries and yogurt?” |
Of course that's not the real question. She's offering strawberries and yogurt not as food, but as a sex toy. 
Anyway, enough already! Scotty, just decide on the damn sentence and stop fiddling with it.
In this respect, Heinlein was right.
Scotty
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| Kantaro wrote: | | Almost real enough to be considered non-fiction, if it weren't made up. |
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Rava Purr-Fox
Princess Of PR
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 154
Location: With Josh Fox
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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For my Rava's Story, I had outlines for each story arc. The chapters were 10 pages min and 10 chapters to an arc. but that was bare min plot lines.
For my HP book I am writing I took it far more seriously, Every five chapters I update my "plots to be resolved" listing. This helps when I begin planning for a new chapter what needs to be mentioned. When writing lang chapters in sequence it is easy to forget to mention things.
Since I am playing in a well documented world I only keep a listing of any characters I've invented, the rest I look up online when I need to.
Major plot points and secondary plots. I have a map of were I am going and what I have completed for the main points. Secondary plots just happen.  If I were to plan out the secondary plot points I'd lose all my creative energy but by leaving that part open I find it much easier to fly through my main points because the characters push thru each obsticale instead of trying to walk off and do their own thing.
All my stories are very character based, meaning I give my characters their own free-will and follow them through and I only poke them to keep them on course, but then again I have characters like Draco Malfoy who want to steal the scene *sighs* In my mind he really is as annoying as he is in the movies. But hey I enjoying putting them in their place.
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