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Nachter
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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, this has people talking already!! That's something I've longed for, for quite a while Very Happy
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Nameless
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aslaug wrote:
Wow, this has people talking already!! That's something I've longed for, for quite a while Very Happy

Of course, if you want us (or at least me) talking, then you'll have to respond. Writing a page long post gets old very quickly if you only get a one-line response.
I can understand that there are points that you wouldn't want to discuss in detail to avoid spoilers, but there should be something you can say about the points I brought up. There seems to be enough in the background info to inspire at least one (if not several) interesting discussions.

One more point I want to bring up:
Of course I don't know the organisation of the Terran Navy, but in most past and current Navies "Vice Admiral Malinsky" could not have succeeded "Capital Ship Commander Sung". Usually an Admiral (of any rank) does not command a ship; the ship would still be commanded by a "Captain", the Admiral would ride on the ship and command the Squadron (Flotilla, Fleet) the ship was part of. Even if said Squadron consisted of only one ship. Of course, depending on the persons involved, he could leave the handling of the ship completely in her captain's hands or basically demote the captain to being a secondary XO.

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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, admirals can command ships. The Royal Navy still flies an admiral's ensign on the HMS Victory, for example ... despite the old girl being embedded in concrete.

The Danish navy had vice admirals commanding individual ships during its greatest days, like the Norwegian-born Peter Wessel. Admirals don't command ships ... Vice admirals, however, can and do command capital ships.

And in any case, this is decidedly a regime trying to set itself apart from the past in most ways.
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Nameless
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like I said, this doesn't nesseccarily apply to every navy. On the other hand, when an Admiral "flies his flag" from a ship doesn't mean that he's actually commanding the vessel itself (at Trafalgar Nelson hoist his flag on the Victory with Samuel Sutton as his flag captain [the simple fact that such a term extists is interesting]), it simply means that he's residing on the ship.
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The BioCobra
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nameless wrote:
Like I said, this doesn't nesseccarily apply to every navy. On the other hand, when an Admiral "flies his flag" from a ship doesn't mean that he's actually commanding the vessel itself (at Trafalgar Nelson hoist his flag on the Victory with Samuel Sutton as his flag captain [the simple fact that such a term extists is interesting]), it simply means that he's residing on the ship.


Very true. Even now, the current CO of the Victory is different from the Second Sea Lord (one of the three highest-ranked Admirals in the British fleet) whose flag flies from the ship. The vessel is the Second Sea Lord's ceremonial flagship, but the Victory is not my country's navy's fleet flagship. That honour currently belongs to the HMS Bulwark.

It's interesting to note that when I was with the filly down in Portsmouth when we visited the dry dock where the ship is housed, the CO and XO had special car-parking spaces less than a hundred yards away from where the Victory is propped up. All the formality of tradition in Britain, especially for our navy, was a curious and interesting sight, even to me.

But, back to the original point, I agree with Aslaug as well. In the years hence from now that Nachter takes place in, especially to maintain more dominance over everything, I imagine the TUG would allow Admirals (or even just Vice Admirals) command of ships. Having the highest ranks able to directly command a vessel would prevent, as we can clearly see, any deviation from the express desires of the TUG. At least, that's how I see it.

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Nameless
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, having an Admiral in direct command of a ship generally doesn't make much sense. Simply because an Admiral is supposed to concern himself with matters of "strategy", not the day-to-day minutae of running a ship (of course most of those will be taken care of by lower ranking officers, but still).

The only circumstances where it makes sense for an Admiral to take direct control of a single ship would be if a navy (or at least a fleet) basically consists of no more than one or two real/big ships (and perhaps a number of much smaller boats).
Even when you have "fleets" that consist of one big ship with several smaller support ships (think an US Carrier Group) it IMHO makes sense to have one Admiral in command of the fleet with a Captain in command of the carrier simply so the Admiral can move his flag to a different ship when required (normally he's be on the strongest ship, when chasing an enemy, he might move to the fastest ship instead or the only ship of the fleet that can enter a particularly shallow part of the sea).

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The BioCobra
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nameless wrote:
For me, having an Admiral in direct command of a ship generally doesn't make much sense. Simply because an Admiral is supposed to concern himself with matters of "strategy", not the day-to-day minutae of running a ship (of course most of those will be taken care of by lower ranking officers, but still).

The only circumstances where it makes sense for an Admiral to take direct control of a single ship would be if a navy (or at least a fleet) basically consists of no more than one or two real/big ships (and perhaps a number of much smaller boats).
Even when you have "fleets" that consist of one big ship with several smaller support ships (think an US Carrier Group) it IMHO makes sense to have one Admiral in command of the fleet with a Captain in command of the carrier simply so the Admiral can move his flag to a different ship when required (normally he's be on the strongest ship, when chasing an enemy, he might move to the fastest ship instead or the only ship of the fleet that can enter a particularly shallow part of the sea).


I see where you're coming from. The idea of the position of ranks and responsibilities within a military command structure from what we know it is a rather radical notion, but there are a couple of possible explanations for that. Ultimately, of course, I can't speak for the specifics of the in-story lore.

It could be that, close to what Aslaug originally suggested, the concept of a Vice Admiral has changed and/or evolved from what they are presently to an officer of the navy with a more direct position of control. Essentially, it could be that the Vice Admiral's responsibilities have been shifted downward in importance from strategists and overall commanders to officers in control of a ship, and their position has been taken by full Admirals specifically, due to bureaucracy, lack of ships, lack of men, or a more direct and imposing link between the TUG higher-ups and the pieces they shift on the galactic tafl board. Or maybe Vice Admirals can be assigned strategic or front line duties. Or maybe they have to cope with both being assigned to them at once. Might explain the colossal sociopathy of Malinsky if that were the case...

Alternatively, it could be a deliberate ploy of some kind. And yes, here comes the 'conspiracy theory' theory. Maybe the TUG has some ulterior motive in assigning such a high-ranking individual, who should be doing the thinking and pushing of blocks around tables, to direct command of the Doomsday. Either he is there to keep an eye on something big going down, or the TUG, thinking that he was corrupt and nutty even by their standards, decided that he had to be taken out of big circles without killing him or revoking his upload rights, as such a thing would most likely prove controversial for someone so high up with a 'supposedly' clean bill of mental health.

But hey, it could be anything. I won't say the filly is wrong (she seems to have based this off of the Danish chain of naval command) or that you are wrong (as you base it off of a more conventional system), but I think we have to be prepared for a reasonable degree of suspense of disbelief in this regard. We'll just have to assume that things have become so different and alien from how we view the world, even down to the logistics and military system of command and operation, that it will leave us questioning a great many things. And that, as I believe, is meant to be a part of Aslaug's story anyway, whether this particular issue was intentional or not.

Cobra out.

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Frazikar
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mountains and molehills gents...

Remember that this Admiral took over from the Captain (politics?) and no-one has stated there was another Captain to be assigned to the ship, nor was the XO 'promoted' to the 'open' slot. Also, note that there are no consorts either...
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Tora_Frogg
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely EXCELLENT story!

Very much looking forward to reading more. That first chapter was very intriguing. Definitely held my attention, and considering my attention span has been somewhat lame of late, that's saying something.

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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much Pickles. I hope you will continue to enjoy it, even if it is only a chapter a month Smile
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bastion
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a new year and Nachter continues here...
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Frazikar
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
'... and now, things get interesting...'
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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, hopefully. I remember when one of my proofers saw this chapter, her first reaction was "The Flying Dutchman in Space"? And I laughed Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"The Flying Dutchman in Space"?


Not quite, the crew's only half-dead...(so far)
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Nameless
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh!

It's no wonder the Terran can't defeat the rebels in space.

Billions of dollar's (or whatever the local currency is called) worth of gear and tactics like a coalition of neolithic tribes. The Noxii in AVC had more sophisticated tactics than the "elite" of the TUG. Superior tactics (and logistics) are what won the romans their empire.

Numbers may not mean all that much (compared to individual skill) when the fights are the basically a free-for-all melee, but they can mean a LOT when you use proper tactics; the tactics may not need to be very sophisticated, simply one fighter keeps the enemy occupied so the second one can stab him in the back.
Having the FACs run off to play "hero" and leave the bombers to fend for themselves is pure idiocy. Any admiral or general worth his salt knows that "combined arms" tactics are usually the most successful. Military units are often like rock-paper-scissors; FACs kill bombers but are useless against capital ships; bombers kill (or damage) capital ships but are useless against FACs; and so on.

If I was in command of the Domesday, my tactics for the fight would be something like this:
Keep a small portion of the FACs as reserve and for last-ditch defense. The rest of the FACs would be split into two waves, the first (and slightly bigger) wave are to engage the enemy's FACs to keep them occupied and to engage enemy bombers. The second wave would be a combined FAC and bomber force; something like 3 bombers and 6 FACs in each wing. The FACs only role would be to defend the bombers, so they can concentrate on their bombing run. More than one bomber per group so an enemy capital ship has to split their deffensive fire which makes it a lot easier to slip missiles past them.

I doubt that it makes any difference what color the bombers are painted; the engagement distances are way beyond what the unaided eye can see; except perhaps in a dogfight. I don't know what kind of engines they use, but the exhaust "light" can probably be seen ten to a hundred times as far as the craft itself (if need be with infrared goggles) and radar or similar sensors would have several times the range of that.

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