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Homosexual rights downfall of churches?
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Sigurd Volsung
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I see it there's a huge problem with religious institutions pressing for laws banning homosexual marriage, it denies other institutions from practicing what they believe to be right. In California the Mormon Church which is based in Utah poured tons and tons of money into passing Prop 8 in order to ban gay marriage. Now here comes the smaller Unitarian Church who strongly wishes to preform gay marriages, but yet because of acts by the likes of the Mormon Church (since by the statistics Prop 8 was going to be defeated until the Mormons stuffed money into anti-gay campaigning) they are no longer allowed to even think about it. I myself am considering become a priest through the Unitarian church specifically for the ability of being able to preform marriages, and I'd hope to have the chance to preform at least a few same sex ones. What that shows is that one Church has power over another simply because they have more money to shove at things. This shows blatantly that one Church actively HATES gays, they consider them to be second class citizens since they feel that they should not have the same rights.

Anyone who voted in favor of Prop 8 should fess up and admit to themselves that they are anti-gay, and believe me that if it wasn't for the fact that I don't want this thread locked I'd nail at least one of you to the proverbial wall. Voting against ANYONES civil rights is the clearest form of hate. I have heard people claim that they have friends who are gay, yet they voted for Prop 8 which is just like, which would be like telling a slave that they are a friend but I'm going to vote to keep all of your people in bondage. I do not like the fact that many groups have the freedom of speech, but if I was to deny them their rights then I would be no better then they.

Some people say hate the sin not the sinner. I can think of no greater sin then spreading hate of any sort, and unless the sinner does their best to actively make up for that sin then I will HATE the sinner. I have a deep and bitter hatred for many churches for what have as well as what they haven't done in the past and the present (hence the reason that I would take great joy if they began to divide along civil rights lines), but I will not hate those who are current members if they try to make up for the sins of their church.

As for the Bible a book which was meant to be a call to love your fellow man but has been used to justify slavery, mass murder, and countless wars. It was written by men, and translated by monks who were eating bread with a mold on it that acted as a powerful hallucinogenic (Psych 101). The monks believed that they were divinely inspired when in fact they were just tripping out on (for all intensive purposes) Acid. It was a good book in intention but has often been perverted by those who believe in it.

Now I come to Jesus of Nazarith/Christ, nice guy, I'd say a little naive myself, but hey that's me. He had a lot of good ideas about what people should aspire to be, to bad many who claim to follow him didn't seem to bother getting to know his intentions. As one of my favorite bumper stickers reads "Jesus protect me from your followers".

I will not condemn Christianity as a whole but a major list of its followers beg to be condemned.

If the burning times were to come again I will meet the burners blade in hand with the intention of crippling them so that instead of falling honorably in battle they will suffer the straw death of a coward and be sent into the arms of Hel herself, Aslaug knows what I mean.

Sorry I had to get that last part out of my system.

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Concolor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigurd Volsung wrote:

<snip>
What that shows is that one Church has power over another simply because they have more money to shove at things. This shows blatantly that one Church actively HATES gays, they consider them to be second class citizens since they feel that they should not have the same rights.

It's not just ... it's not even primarily ... churches that do this. Spreading money around to confuse an issue or stir up atavistic fears in the sheeple is an old and highly effective tactic. The Mormon church mentioned in this instance is an absolute PIKER when compared with some of the big corporate lobbies or political action groups. They drop BILLIONS into issues they care about, and woe betide you if you get in their way.

Sigurd Volsung wrote:

<snip>
Voting against ANYONES civil rights is the clearest form of hate.

Oh, I don't know. Sending out death-militias to randomly murder innocents and chop off limbs with a machete seems a bit clearer to me. But that's just me.

Sigurd Volsung wrote:
Some people say hate the sin not the sinner. I can think of no greater sin then spreading hate of any sort, and unless the sinner does their best to actively make up for that sin then I will HATE the sinner. I have a deep and bitter hatred for many churches for what have as well as what they haven't done in the past and the present (hence the reason that I would take great joy if they began to divide along civil rights lines), but I will not hate those who are current members if they try to make up for the sins of their church.

Many of them are already dividing along civil-rights lines. The Anglican/Episcopal worldwide group of synods (to name one) is splitting as we speak over the issue of ordaining gays to the priesthood.

Sigurd Volsung wrote:
As for the Bible a book which was meant to be a call to love your fellow man but has been used to justify slavery, mass murder, and countless wars. It was written by men, and translated by monks who were eating bread with a mold on it that acted as a powerful hallucinogenic (Psych 101). The monks believed that they were divinely inspired when in fact they were just tripping out on (for all intents and purposes) Acid. It was a good book in intention but has often been perverted by those who believe in it.

Through much of its history, the Church has consisted not so much of groups of Christians as it has groups competing with each other for political power and advantage. That's every bit as true in the USA today as it was in central Europe in 1300. Nor does it require an "altered consciousness" to screw things up. That's why serious Biblical scholars go to the trouble of learning the original languages. There have been a lot of efforts over the last 50-75 years to correct the mistranlations and blatant additions and omissions found in the body of English-based Scripture, but they usually get shouted down by the "if the King James Version was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!" crowd. Sigh.

Sigurd Volsung wrote:
Now I come to Jesus of Nazarith/Christ, nice guy, I'd say a little naive myself, but hey that's me. He had a lot of good ideas about what people should aspire to be, to bad many who claim to follow him didn't seem to bother getting to know his intentions. As one of my favorite bumper stickers reads "Jesus protect me from your followers".

As Gandhi observed, "I have read your Bible. I like your Christ. I do not so much like your Christians." Fallability sucks, don't it?

Sigurd Volsung wrote:
I will not condemn Christianity as a whole but a major list of its followers beg to be condemned.

No argument there.

Sigurd Volsung wrote:
If the burning times were to come again I will meet the burners blade in hand with the intention of crippling them so that instead of falling honorably in battle they will suffer the straw death of a coward and be sent into the arms of Hel herself, Aslaug knows what I mean.

Sorry I had to get that last part out of my system.

Not to worry. Nobody likes to be held in the regard that so many "Holy Rollers" hold ... well ... anyone who isn't one of them. I've been called apostate to my face, by people whose Christianity, so-called, I seriously doubt. And some of them (perhaps most of them) will never learn because they are, at their cores, unteachable. We should all strive NOT to be like that. An unquestioned faith is a dangerous thing.

Here are some quotes I found apropos:

The problem with being sure that God is on your side is that you can't change your mind, because God sure isn't going to change His. ---Roger Ebert

Only the madman is absolutely sure. ---Robert Anton Wilson

As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. ---Rabbi Sheila Peltz, regarding Auschwitz

Yeah. Pretty much.

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Concolor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mwalimu wrote:

<snip>
As far as I know, the only issue the Catholic church has been notably outspoken on is abortion (and please, let's not go there; we seem to have more than enough fodder in this thread talking about homosexuality).


Awwww, come on, mwalimu! No abortion debate? You're no fun! Twisted Evil

Y'know, I think a lot of the furry community is hard to fit into a box. We don't fit the standard molds, for the most part. I, for example, am a pro-life, pro-gun, pro-gay, anti-death-penalty Evangelical who loves speculative fiction, respects the Pagan worldview for its own worth, and takes ecclesiastical pronouncements with a large grain of salt. Where the heck do you put that??? Rolling Eyes

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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concolor wrote:
Where the heck do you put that??? Rolling Eyes


Hmm ... into a box called Concolor? Personally, I think it's better to think outside the box though Smile
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Teric
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigurd,

I am deeply, deeply saddened and sorrowful that you have mis-judged me and mis-understood me to such an extent.

I just wanted to be friends, Sigurd. I assure you that I have no hate for anyone at all. "Nail me to the wall" if you must, I won't resist you. I have no desire to debate any of your points.

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Cookie
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sigurd Volsung wrote:
Some people say hate the sin not the sinner. I can think of no greater sin then spreading hate of any sort, and unless the sinner does their best to actively make up for that sin then I will HATE the sinner.


Then you, yourself, would be spreading hatred.

There is no small or big in God's eyes. No gray. Hatred is hatred, and is bad no matter what.

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Styx
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then it's bad to hate slavery, discrimination, the intolerance of others, the corruption of a once noble purpose? Hate is not bad or good hate is a tool. Hate leads to anger, anger leads to action *sighs* I sound like Yoda. It's what is hated that defines good or evil.
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Teric
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Styx wrote:
Then it's bad to hate slavery, discrimination, the intolerance of others, the corruption of a once noble purpose? Hate is not bad or good hate is a tool. Hate leads to anger, anger leads to action *sighs* I sound like Yoda. It's what is hated that defines good or evil.


Actually, Styx, I think Yoda would disagree with you--"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering."

I would respectfully disagree with you as well. I think that hate is never good, not at all. One can strongly disagree with and oppose an issue or action without resorting to hate.

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Syrius
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mogthemoogle wrote:
Sigurd Volsung wrote:
Some people say hate the sin not the sinner. I can think of no greater sin then spreading hate of any sort, and unless the sinner does their best to actively make up for that sin then I will HATE the sinner.


Then you, yourself, would be spreading hatred.

There is no small or big in God's eyes. No gray. Hatred is hatred, and is bad no matter what.


Maybe the word that we need to use here is "Dislike" instead of hate. I may dislike one of my coworkers, but that doesn't mean I harbor a desire to hurt him/her. (As much as I wish I could use a their face as a DDR mat. Razz

Concolor, you forgot "Only a Sith talks in absolutes." -Obi Wan Kenobi.

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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teric wrote:
I am deeply, deeply saddened and sorrowful that you have mis-judged me and mis-understood me to such an extent.

I just wanted to be friends, Sigurd. I assure you that I have no hate for anyone at all. "Nail me to the wall" if you must, I won't resist you. I have no desire to debate any of your points.


Well, I for one think you're quite alright Teric, because you at least give some thought to these issues. And while we did bonk heads about it once on my forum, the way I see it, that did clear the air.

I can't force people to like me or like what I am. What I can ask for is that they respect it's really none of their business and back down. And I can ask that if they don't like it, they either learn to deal with it or leave me alone.

As I saw it, you can deal with it, and you're not constantly telling me what an awful person I am.

So there's no problem...

Not everyone reacts to any given situation the same way.
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Concolor
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syrius wrote:
Concolor, you forgot "Only a Sith talks in absolutes." -Obi Wan Kenobi.


Right! Thanks. I'm not really a student of Lucasology.

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Concolor
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aslaug wrote:

<snip>

I can't force people to like me or like what I am. What I can ask for is that they respect it's really none of their business and back down. And I can ask that if they don't like it, they either learn to deal with it or leave me alone.

As I saw it, you can deal with it, and you're not constantly telling me what an awful person I am.

<snip>


Color me confused. Why are you an awful person? The impression I get is of someone who is articulate, thoughtful, well-read, passionate, and independent-minded. How is that awful?

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Aslaug
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow ...

Thank you Concolor. Did anyone tell you that you're good at giving compliments lately? Otherwise, please consider it done.

No, the awful-thing was a reference to what has been shouted at me in the past. I have sadly had to face down religious nutcases (I wish there was a less loaded term but trust me, in this case ... it fits) as an awful person.

Some of the things I've been called includes but are not limited to:

"sodomite" (which I find rather amusing since that would require me to still be physically male ... mentally I never was so I can't really speak on that issue)

"In league with the devil"

Someone who has willfully "undone God's work"

A person who has "thrown my soul into the garbage can" (which frankly, if one follows that line of logic through means that by their reasoning ... the human soul is placed in the genitalia ... )

"Evil"

"Faggot" (see "Sodomite")

And of course, the oft-used reminder that I will burn in Hell and that God hates me. And this has happened in a place as legendarily openminded as Denmark.

This from socalled Christians.

On the other hand, I've had many wonderful and good experiences with Christians as well. One of them once told me that the only reason she was sad that I was a heathen and not a Christian was that I would've been "formidable" in the cloth (Denmark use female preachers in the state church). I rather like debating theology and faith with people who are not trying to place a label of "You're a sinner and must repent" on my face but who can simply say "this is what I believe in, what do you believe in? Are there any similarities at all and where do we differ?"

I've done that a lot with my proofreaders over time. It's been absolutely fantastic and I believe both they and I learned a lot from it.

But I am still very wary when meeting openly Christian people because I know that to some of them, I basically function like a red rag in the face of a stampeding bull (yeah I know they are colorblind. I'm being metaphorical). However, I won't apologize for existing and I'm not going to say "Oh woe is me, I'm such an awful person for surviving".

It angers me that many Christians believe they are entitled to pass judgment when their own bible CLEARLY states that they have absolutely no right whatsoever to pass any kind of judgment on anyone. That only their God has that right.

And it angers me even more that they single out homosexuals for mistreatment, when Christian theology in no uncertain terms ... ever since Thomas Aquinas spoke about how women were inferior to men and how they were so stupid they were basically nothing more than animals to be trained ... has taught that the soul is genderless.

Please ... think about that one more time. The body ... the physical body ... has a gender. But that which, according to most Christians at least, makes us touched by God (see: Cistine Chapel ceiling for marvelous illutration) is our soul, and that soul has no gender.

When we die and, allegedly, go to meet God for judgment, we leave our physical bodies behind. Only that which has real relevance and importance goes to God, namely the soul.

Which, I repeat yet again, has no gender.

So you're telling me that God will look upon one sexless soul and say "You fell in love with another soul that had the same physical and entirely unimportant genitalia as your equally physical and therefore entirely unimportant body. Shame on you. Now go smolder for eternity in a fiery pit of nastiness!"

Even if I was Christian, I wouldn't buy that.

What I would really like would be for more Christians to stop taking what their hugely uneducated preachers tell them at face value ... and start looking into the history of theology on these issues. They'd learn some pretty startling things about WHEN this dogma was introduced.

And just maybe, it would make them leave homosexuals alone.
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Teric
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aslaug wrote:
Teric wrote:
I am deeply, deeply saddened and sorrowful that you have mis-judged me and mis-understood me to such an extent.

I just wanted to be friends, Sigurd. I assure you that I have no hate for anyone at all. "Nail me to the wall" if you must, I won't resist you. I have no desire to debate any of your points.


Well, I for one think you're quite alright Teric, because you at least give some thought to these issues. And while we did bonk heads about it once on my forum, the way I see it, that did clear the air.

I can't force people to like me or like what I am. What I can ask for is that they respect it's really none of their business and back down. And I can ask that if they don't like it, they either learn to deal with it or leave me alone.

As I saw it, you can deal with it, and you're not constantly telling me what an awful person I am.

So there's no problem...

Not everyone reacts to any given situation the same way.


Thank you, Aslaug. It really means a lot to me that you would say that. I echo a lot of what Concolor said; I have a lot of respect for you, and I really admire your courage, wit, intelligence, and talent.

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Sigurd Volsung
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concolor wrote:
Sigurd Volsung wrote:

<snip>
Voting against ANYONES civil rights is the clearest form of hate.

Oh, I don't know. Sending out death-militias to randomly murder innocents and chop off limbs with a machete seems a bit clearer to me. But that's just me.


Don't forget that it is to repress civil rights that those death squads and militias are sent out to butcher and rape.

As for why I have attacked you Teric it is simple, you have proven yourself to feel that gays, lesbians, and transexuals (like Aslaug) should not have the same rights as you or I, in other words you feel that they are second class citizens. I am not putting words in your mouth, I am instead putting words to your actions. So as far as I can tell I have neither misjudged you nor misunderstood you.

The Mormon church, among others, often sends people to proselytize to unsuspecting people early in the morning, an act that is looked down upon by other religions. Giving money to pass Prop8 is proselytizing on a grand scale, it is saying that other religions should not have the right to perform homosexual marriages if they want to.

Mogthemoggle wrote:
Sigurd Volsung wrote:
Some people say hate the sin not the sinner. I can think of no greater sin then spreading hate of any sort, and unless the sinner does their best to actively make up for that sin then I will HATE the sinner.


Then you, yourself, would be spreading hatred.

There is no small or big in God's eyes. No gray. Hatred is hatred, and is bad no matter what.


As a Heathen, like Aslaug, I have no concept of sin in the way that Christians do. Sin is often created by religious institutions to frighten it followers into acting a certain way.

Anyways hate is often a very good thing to have, you can hate the fact that to many students die at the hands of drunk drivers. That hatred spawned SADD a good organization that tries its best to end drunk driving. In that situation is hate bad? Hate is a necessary emotion. If God views Hate as bad no matter what then he has a very narrow view of the world he created, of course saying that YOU know how God views matters is another sin, the sin of pride.

If I was to be Christian I'd have to be a Luciferian a group that believes that Lucifer was not cast out of heaven for rising up against God. Instead the Morning Star was sent to Earth to destroy the Church since the Church had corrupted the word of God.

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