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A Fang fighter....
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Cateagle
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:57 pm    Post subject: Basics of the Fang Fighter Reply with quote

I'm still playing with this one, but I'd like to lay out the basics I have so far for comment and elaboration:

1) Clearly it has to have an aerodynamic shape for atmospheric operation - you may have the power to fly a barn door, but power used that way can't be used for other purposes. Given the observed level of computer technology, it's also almost certainly a stable aerodynamic configuration. It most likely does not include any considerations of RCS reduction - firstly because they'll be convinced of their tech superiority and not see the need for it and, secondly, because they most likely do not have the computing capacity to do more than the bare basics of this analysis.

2) It's reasonably large (say, 'bout the general size of the F-15 for a first approximation) because you'll either need considerable energy storage capacity or storage capacity for whatever fuel their "Mr. Fusion" Laughing uses. The only alternative to these two is a micro-pile and that also requires a significant volume. Whatever the power source, it has two magnetic impeller drives (per text) that can also be used for hovering.

3) Sensor fit - likely to have some means of detecting magnetic impulse drives; beyond that, I'd expect radar and IRST fits equivalent to the best circa-1970's items on Earth (beyond that again needs better computers).

4) Weapons fit: Per textev, it clearly carries at least one energy weapon. Beyond that, I would guess at least one gun and a selection of magnetic impeller missiles with a range of guidance systems again equivalent to circa-1970's missiles on Earth, and for the same reason. Use of PGM's agaisnt ground targets is a possibility, but only rudimentary ones as, again, comptuer capabilities play a role.

Comments, critcisms, expansions?

Thougthfully,
Cateagle

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To sensors: I agree with a MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector)l. When their drive system is bases on magnetics it's only logical that they have sensors based on magnetics too.

To energy system: If a Fang has a fusion reactor it could use a magnetic field to collect hydrogen out of the atmosphere and power the reactor, kinda like a ramjet with the exception that the hydrogen is used to create energy for the engines and not directly as fuel.

However, such a magnetic field might disturb the impeller drive and their computing capability surely isn't enough to compensate that.

Still, it is a nice idea since it eliminates the fuel storage and gives the fighter a virtually unlimited range.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually not, maybe. There have been ideas for long-range spaceships that use magnetic fields to collect hydrogen from the 'empty space' of space.

But if it has a storage for it again, this would increase the operating time significantly if it can recharge while in the atmosphere. If it is designed as a "ground attack" and not as a space fighter, then that makes sense, since the space trip would be short, only from the mothership to the atmosphere and then back again. If it uses the reactor for an energy weapon, then the ability to recharge in the atmosphere becomes even more useful.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Regan wrote:
I think you missed one point Tygon. While the Fang can fight in atmosphere it also has to funciton and be able to fight in vaccuum. So while getting fuel from the atmosphere would be fine there, in orbit or deep space, with no fuel storage, it makes a better door stop than a weapon. Unless you get a lot of wolves to throw one at the enemy. Wink


Good point, Mike. However, in this I assumed that the Fang is mainly for atmospheric operation. I can't remember if Anthony ever said if that is the case or not. Anyway, you could have a small hydrogen storage, enough for flights outside of atmospheres.

Also, you forgot to take in account (or probably didn't know) that space, in contary to common believe is NOT empty. There is lots of stuff flying around out there and most of that is hydrogen. After all, the initial idea for the ramjet in sci-fi is to use it as interstellar vehicle. I have stated that already in chapter 4 of Feline Destiny Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tygon wrote:
Also, you forgot to take in account (or probably didn't know) that space, in contary to common believe is NOT empty. There is lots of stuff flying around out there and most of that is hydrogen. After all, the initial idea for the ramjet in sci-fi is to use it as interstellar vehicle. I have stated that already in chapter 4 of Feline Destiny Smile


Yeah, but you have to get up to an appreciable fraction of c before Bussard ramjets can work in space. *G* In addition, the processing capacity uses up a distinct fraction of available payload (shoot, you should see what some 1950's spaceplane designs did for inflight processing & storage of atmospheric oxygen for use in achieving orbit).

In a way, I kinda like idea of micro-fission piles because you don't have short term fuel restrictions (cf Shrike class LAC's in David Weber's Honor-verse). In reality, I can see water being used with a fusion unit - crack it and use the hydrogen for fusion and the oxygen for life support. That makes a lot of sense in that you only need one set of tanks and refueling also replenishes your life support.

Thoughtfully,
Cateagle

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Last edited by Cateagle on Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Question: What is a micro-fission pile?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tygon wrote:
Question: What is a micro-fission pile?


A small reactor using something other than circulating coolant to draw off the energy (you could consider it, I suppose, as a greatly scaled up RTG Very Happy)

RTG = RadioThermoGenerator (as used in deep space probes that can't use, because of their distance from the sun, solar cells)

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, no idea what a RadioThermoGenerator is either.

Regarding my idea with the ram field, I take it back. Since people got so many points against it here I rather use it for myself.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cateagle wrote:
Yeah, but you have to get up to an appreciable fraction of c before Bussard ramjets can work in space. *G*


Okay, then not. Look back at my idea for a smaller hydrogen storage.

BTW: For those who don't know, 1c is the speed of light.

Cateagle wrote:
In addition, the processing capacity uses up a distinct fraction of available payload (shoot, you should see what some 1950's spaceplane designs did for inflight processing & storage of atmospheric oxygen for use in achieving orbit).


What processing? You put hydrogen in one side of the reactor and blast the plasma out on the other side. Okay, that's very simplified but that's how it works. Everything that's not hydrogen will be burned away in the process.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tygon wrote:
Sorry, no idea what a RadioThermoGenerator is either.


A RTG is a subcritical amount of radioactive material (generally uranium) from which electrical energy is extracted using thermocouples and other solid state means.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tygon wrote:
Okay, then not. Look back at my idea for a smaller hydrogen storage.


True, but I think my approach of crackign water has some other advantages; you don't need a separate set of oxygen tanks for life support purposes and the overall plumbing situation is lots simpler.

Tygon wrote:
Cateagle wrote:
In addition, the processing capacity uses up a distinct fraction of available payload (shoot, you should see what some 1950's spaceplane designs did for inflight processing & storage of atmospheric oxygen for use in achieving orbit).


What processing? You put hydrogen in one side of the reactor and blast the plasma out on the other side. Okay, that's very simplified but that's how it works. Everything that's not hydrogen will be burned away in the process.


Ah, but you want to be able to store some of the hydrogen for the return trip to your base ship in space and that takes processing capacity to convert it for storage. I can see something like this being installed on small survey ships, but not on fighters.

thoughtfully,
Cateagle

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings!

I just wanted to make one thing clear...

The Fang does NOT have any projectile guns.

Why would they?
A beam weapon is light-speed, which spimplifies aiming, while a projectile is at best a few times the speed of sound. That's why the Fand is so easy to shoot down even with a rifle; the armor is built to withstand energy/plasma attacks, not projectiles.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anthony wrote:
I just wanted to make one thing clear...

The Fang does NOT have any projectile guns.

Why would they?
A beam weapon is light-speed, which spimplifies aiming, while a projectile is at best a few times the speed of sound. That's why the Fand is so easy to shoot down even with a rifle; the armor is built to withstand energy/plasma attacks, not projectiles.


Why? Because in atmospheric combat, a beam is considerably reduced in range and, for the ranges involved, a projectile weapon would be quite adequate. And because an effective beam weapon is going to suck power in wholesale quantities.

Seriously, an arguement can be made either way, but I'll bow to the author in this case. Do they carry, presumably in internal weapons bays, magnetic impeller missiles?

Cateagle

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings!

Cateagle:
Exactly what is the practical range of a beam weapon in an atmosphere?

I seem to remember that the USaF have been experimenting with putting a bl**dy big laser gun in a Boeing, and used it to shoot down missiles...
(Yes, they managed to shoot down a Sidewinder missile )

Also, remember that the practical targeting distance of a projectile weapon depends on your own speed, the projectile speed, the size of your target, and the speed and maneuvrability of the target.

As for missiles...
Yeah, they probably have them, but how good are they?
A simple Sidewinder isn't too 'clever' but the moment you try to build a Penguin, Exocet, or other 'smart' missile you suddenly need a lot more processing power.

BTW: For those that wonder, the Penguin is a 1 meter long Air to Surface missile made in the late seventies/early eighties here in Norway. It uses an Infrared camera and some sort of image processing to make certain it hits a ship, not a reef or decoy.(The exocet isn't that smart)
It's powerful enough to knock out a destroyer(100Kilo delayed fuse warhead), but also maneuverable enough to hit an MTB...
It's not known whether the Phalanx AutoGun on American warships is capable of shooting it down...

Curiously enough, the American coastguard were interested in the Mark 3 mod 7(with folding fins) to mount on their helicopters.

Anyway, it shows what can be done with the processing power available in that period....

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2003 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anthony wrote:

Cateagle:
Exactly what is the practical range of a beam weapon in an atmosphere?

I seem to remember that the USaF have been experimenting with putting a bl**dy big laser gun in a Boeing, and used it to shoot down missiles...
(Yes, they managed to shoot down a Sidewinder missile )


It depends - with enough power and computer-controlled adaptive optics you essentially have unlimited range (but that's for what's mounted in a 747 - an earlier, less powerful concept, mounted in a modifed KC-135 had a few miles range with an earlier version of adaptive optics).

Anthony wrote:

Also, remember that the practical targeting distance of a projectile weapon depends on your own speed, the projectile speed, the size of your target, and the speed and maneuvrability of the target.


Indeed, but a lot of that was easily accomodated by numerous fighter fire contorl systems, even circa 1970. Make the gun a large enough caiber and it can be useful for ground attack modes, too.

Anthony wrote:
As for missiles...
Yeah, they probably have them, but how good are they?
A simple Sidewinder isn't too 'clever' but the moment you try to build a Penguin, Exocet, or other 'smart' missile you suddenly need a lot more processing power.


I was rather figuring, again, something on the performance level of air-launched missiles available in 1970. Depending on missile size, that gives you quite a variety in the air-to-air arena (from the early version of the phoenix down to improved Sidewinders). For air to ground usage, you again have a range of options, depending on missile size (consider Martel in all its variants, the AS-30, the Komorran, early Mavericks, Walleye, etc.). You might well have unguided manetic impeller propelled weapons for use in either arena. Note that the equivalents of some of these will only be useful with 2-seat fighters becaust they'll need somefur to handle command guidance from the launching vehicle.

Anthony wrote:
BTW: For those that wonder, the Penguin is a 1 meter long Air to Surface missile made in the late seventies/early eighties here in Norway. It uses an Infrared camera and some sort of image processing to make certain it hits a ship, not a reef or decoy.(The exocet isn't that smart) It's powerful enough to knock out a destroyer(100Kilo delayed fuse warhead), but also maneuverable enough to hit an MTB...
It's not known whether the Phalanx AutoGun on American warships is capable of shooting it down...

Curiously enough, the American coastguard were interested in the Mark 3 mod 7(with folding fins) to mount on their helicopters.

Anyway, it shows what can be done with the processing power available in that period....


The US Navy also uses the helicopter-carried version of Penguin as the AGM-119.

Given the above, I can see a Fang having some missile capability in an internal bay or two (aero. loads at atmospheric entry preclude exteranl carriage) since it would have the advnatage of leting you turn away form your target while guiding the missile using telemtry from its on-board sensors. A good case cold also be made for simply relying ont eh energy weapon. your call, my friend.

Thoughtfully,
Cateagle

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