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A Fang fighter....
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the dark ferret
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Joined: 14 Sep 2002
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Location: alternate earth

PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: A Fang fighter.... Reply with quote

anthony wrote:
Greetings!

One of my more obnoxious readers asked a rather difficult question:

What does a Fang fighter look like?

Well?
Anyone up to the challenge?

Nope... No prizes for best suggestion...

And please note, I'm a Sci-fi buff, so knows how X-wings, A-wings, Y-wings, Tie fighters/bombers/interceptors, snow-speeders, Fury's(B5), the last starfighter and a lot of other craft look like...
(Read: Don't copy, please... )

And PLEASE note, whoever tries to use the daft craft from 'Independence Day' will meet with an unfortunate accident in a dark alley...


Commentary from an obnoxious reader:

Since Anthony has made my private request for information a public matter, I'd figure I might as well share everything we've discussed so far.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gregg Guydish
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:42 PM
Subject: fang


Anthony,

I'm curious, what does a Fang look like? (and no smartass answers, wiseguy,
or Santa will put coal in your stocking this year, I'll make certain of it!
Wink

Thanks,
G!

---

Greetings!

You really HAD to ask, did you?

AAARRGH!

I don't have a clue...

I have some idea of how a Banshee Heavy fighter looks like, though...
(Upcoming story Smile

My name's Lion, Anthony Lion
A fur with a license to Purr...
http://www.planetfurry.com/~anthony/

---

So, what's the power source? Petrochemical hydrocarbons, or something more
exotic?

---

On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:06:57 +0100 Anthony Lion
wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> > So, what's the power source? Petrochemical
> hydrocarbons, or
> > something more exotic?
>
> Why didn't you ask 'Carburettor or injection
> engines' instead?
>
> Lets just assume that they have access to
> decent Cold Fusion reactors or something?
>
> Nobody questions the power source of an Star
> Wars X-wing either...
>
> Someone sent me a 'rough draft' of what they
> thought the Fang would look like...
> It was AWFUL! Almost as if you had made it...
>
> Sorry, but I spent Saturday afternoon/evening
> upgrading and reinstalling a server, so I'm
> still a bit grumpy...
>
> In other news, there's a new Fan-fic under
> way(draft approved), and a tentative request
> for permission to write a larger story...
>
> I must be doing something right...
> (Can't figure out what, though Smile
>
> Smile
> Trygve

---

Well, insulting your fans is a poor way to garner more fanfiction/art. If a
Fang uses petrochemical propulsion, it's going to have a very different design
than if it has some kind of a fusion engine! You specifically mentioned a
"nacell" on the fang, so I needed to know what you were refering to: an engine
component, or some kind of hull structure. You complain that the "rough
draft" you received was awful, but you just told me you have "no idea" what a
fang looks like. Make up your damn mind! Nobody questions what the power
source of an X-Wing is because everybody knows what it looks like! The same
cannot be said about a fang! Is it just engines at the back? Does it have
intake ports that would suggest some type of air-ram jet, perhaps? It's
designed to operate in both atmosphere, and space, so it either needs two
power sources, one for each environment, like rocket/jet power; a power source
that is convertable, like rocket/scramjet; or a power source that doesn't make
a distinction between the two, like fission/fusion/warp power! What about
aerodynamics? Does it need it? If a fang uses some type of jet-type engine,
then the answer is yes, and form will follow function. But if a fang uses
something more esoteric, like fusion, or zero-point field generation, then it
doesn't, and function can follow form. Or, let me put this in a way even your
simple simian brain can understand: does a fang look more like an F-14, or a
Borg cube? Even you should be able to answer that!

Your venemous response has just about put me off this project. You'd do well
to learn to manage your piss and hate better if you actually want to garner a
positive response from the few fans you actually have!

Good day!

--- ---

I really don't know what I did to deserve the level of animosity I received from Anthony on this issue. All I wanted was a little information on the properties of a fang for a piece of fan-art I had an idea for. Instead, I was belittled and insulted in a deeply personal way. And, in some ways worse, my private quest was turned into a public debate. If this is the way Anthony treats his fans, I am no longer certain I want to be counted amongst them. Anthony and I have traded barbs before, but I always took it as friendly banter, nothing more. Looks like this "obnoxious reader" was completely wrong. I guess this is what you get from Anthony Lion when you praise his work, help him with an edit at his request, and try to gather a little information for a creative endeavor on his behalf. Tis the season for acts of kindness and generosity. Someone really should have told Anthony that.

Edit: rehashed email addy

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anthony
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings!

I was sorely tempted to delete that post, but I'll let it stand for now...

One particular reader can't seem to take a joke...

I would also like to point out the mails regarding Anthrofiction.com where, when I replied in a 'matter-of-factly' manner, I got a rather 'who died and made you such a sour puss' response. (Want me to post that? )

As for the design questions....

1. The craft is atmospherically capable. It therefore stands to reason that it is somewhat aerodynamically shaped. (A Borg Cube tends to fly like a brick...)
This is even if it uses propellers, Scramjets, Ion thrusters, anti-gravity, rudolph the red-nosed... or whatever.
If it is supposed to move through the air it must either follow the laws of aerodynamics, or find a way to bypass them altogether.
(Paper aeroplanes seems to be the exception to this rule, since they seem to use hydrodynamics instead... )


2. Petrochemicals are a bad idea.
Why?
They burn(needs oxygen). They also tend to explode at the least convenient moment. they take a lot of room. Can't be used in space...
3. If you have a space capable engine, you don't stuff another engine into it.
It's a FIGHTER! That means you don't lug around loads of useless stuff.

4. No, not everyone knows what the power plant of an X-Wing looks like.
(Feel free to enlighten me, but in a private mail, until you've learned to handle jokes and irony pointed towards you, I don't want more of your posts here.)

5. A 'nacelle' may be an engine-pod, or...
As for placement, feel free to ram it up...

Seriously, if there's more than one, assume that they're symmetrically placed regarding left/right side, but not necessarily front/back.
Excellent examples are commercial jets with engines in the tail and the A-10 Warthog.
Sticking them at the end may or may not be structurally sound, depending on the G forces when the craft turns...
(Also depends on how they work)

Satisfied?

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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: A Fang fighter.... Reply with quote

the dark ferret wrote:
(and no smartass answers, wiseguy,
or Santa will put coal in your stocking this year, I'll make certain of it!

Um, not to put too fine a point on it, Gigi, but a comment like this on an initial contact letter is severely obnoxious. I'm not sure who died and crowned you "Rodney Dangerfield", but if you're going to open your correspondences with such antagonistic missives, you shouldn't be overly surprised when people regard you as offensive and worthy of ridicule.

On the other hand, if you don't like receiving such responses, perhaps you should take another look at the way you're interacting with people. A few social skills, nicely practiced, can go a long way into buying you respectful and - eventually - friendly discussions.
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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anthony wrote:
(Paper aeroplanes seems to be the exception to this rule, since they seem to use hydrodynamics instead... )

Actually, they're an extreme example, but they do follow the same "rule" - law set, actually. Aerodynamics and hydrodynamics are both branches of fluid dynamics, using some radically different constants since the fluids they use are widely divergent. And paper aeroplanes tend to distort the resemblances even further, since they're on an extreme on the mass-to-foil-area ratio - the only everyday objects I can think of that fall farther out on that spectrum are feathers and snowflakes... hardly "normal" as far as flight dynamics are concerned.
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Tygon
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Galadrion wrote:
the only everyday objects I can think of that fall farther out on that spectrum are feathers and snowflakes... hardly "normal" as far as flight dynamics are concerned.


What about spiders? Small ones can 'fly' by just letting one on their strings float in a decent wind and then cling to it Smile

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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2002 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, true. Just goes to show I can't think of everything. Probably lots of other examples, too.
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Cateagle
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:11 am    Post subject: Fang Design Considerations Reply with quote

Leaving aside interpersonal relations, I'm making a few assumptions based on what I've re-read so far.

1) The craft maintains a constant accleration so it can do a controlled atmsopheric entry rather than the firey entry we normally associate with spacecraft.

2) Whether it uses a high energy-density fuel or a high energy-density storage device, the craft almost certainly requires a large amount of volume for this power source. You need something like that to support the energy weapon it carries.

3) Like modern vstol combat aircraft, it can hover using its main propulsion systems in an alternate mode, but it needs wings for atmospheric flight.

Beyond that, I'm going back through Anthony's story and extracting the pertinent information. When I'm done, I'll post it here for comment before proceding with further efforts.

Oh, and should my credentials be questioned: I've been in the design side of the aerospace business for over a quarter century with creditable work on several aircraft and space efforts (including installations now in orbit on the ISS) and am currently involved with the F-35/JSF program.

Cateagle

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Fishburne
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 12:24 am    Post subject: Re: Fang Design Considerations Reply with quote

Cateagle wrote:
Leaving aside interpersonal relations, I'm making a few assumptions based on what I've re-read so far.

1) The craft maintains a constant accleration so it can do a controlled atmsopheric entry rather than the firey entry we normally associate with spacecraft.

2) Whether it uses a high energy-density fuel or a high energy-density storage device, the craft almost certainly requires a large amount of volume for this power source. You need something like that to support the energy weapon it carries.

3) Like modern vstol combat aircraft, it can hover using its main propulsion systems in an alternate mode, but it needs wings for atmospheric flight.

Beyond that, I'm going back through Anthony's story and extracting the pertinent information. When I'm done, I'll post it here for comment before proceding with further efforts.

Oh, and should my credentials be questioned: I've been in the design side of the aerospace business for over a quarter century with creditable work on several aircraft and space efforts (including installations now in orbit on the ISS) and am currently involved with the F-35/JSF program.

Cateagle


Why anyone would question your credibility is beyond me.

but, this is Texas, and we know how to trust each other.

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anthony
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 3:32 am    Post subject: Re: Fang Design Considerations Reply with quote

Cateagle wrote:

3) Like modern vstol combat aircraft, it can hover using its main propulsion systems in an alternate mode, but it needs wings for atmospheric flight.


Really?
wings?

Helicopters, Autogyros and 'lifting body' designs are all without wings...
(OK, the jury is still out on the lifting body design)

I'd say that wings are dependent on the propulsion system.
(Placement and function)

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Shirapusen
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Joined: 04 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 5:24 am    Post subject: Re: A Fang fighter.... Reply with quote

Galadrion wrote:
the dark ferret wrote:
(and no smartass answers, wiseguy,
or Santa will put coal in your stocking this year, I'll make certain of it!

Um, not to put too fine a point on it, Gigi, but a comment like this on an initial contact letter is severely obnoxious. I'm not sure who died and crowned you "Rodney Dangerfield", but if you're going to open your correspondences with such antagonistic missives, you shouldn't be overly surprised when people regard you as offensive and worthy of ridicule.

On the other hand, if you don't like receiving such responses, perhaps you should take another look at the way you're interacting with people. A few social skills, nicely practiced, can go a long way into buying you respectful and - eventually - friendly discussions.


Don't be so hard on the dark ferret. I know my brother, and he can make you go Twisted Evil . I can fix the coal in the stocking, and maybe ad som from me too. See you inn a week dear brother. Very Happy
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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy, there, Shirapusen. "Gigi" refers to the Dark Ferret, or as he's otherwise known, Gregg G. Guydish - he got tagged with that one after a series of run-ins with Kinsfire.

Easy, girl, I was defending your brother!
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Shirapusen
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's ok that you are defending my brother. I know my brother very well, and I belive that the Ferret my ned some defending too.

On the other side. We both have a sense of humor, that kan be difficult to understand from time to time. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 12:34 am    Post subject: Re: Fang Design Considerations Reply with quote

anthony wrote:
Cateagle wrote:

3) Like modern vstol combat aircraft, it can hover using its main propulsion systems in an alternate mode, but it needs wings for atmospheric flight.


Really?
wings?

Helicopters, Autogyros and 'lifting body' designs are all without wings...
(OK, the jury is still out on the lifting body design)

I'd say that wings are dependent on the propulsion system.
(Placement and function)


The rotors of helicopters and autogyros are essentially wings - similar airfoil cross-sections and such. Lifting body designs are more an application of the same basic principle to the whole vehicle body and even then control surfaces are needed (e.g. Tacit Blue and TSSAM derive much of their lift from the shaped fuselages but still need vestigal wings and tails). Beyond that I need to verify a few things, but I get the impression that the extra-terrestrials do not have near the computing power available here and I doubt they could run adequate CFD codes to design a highly manueverable lifting body (I note that none of those flown on this planet have been all that manueverable).

Thoughtfully,
Cateagle

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anthony
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, they don't have the same level computers, but...

NASA experimented with lifting body designs in the sixties.
(Well, a few enthusiasts at least )

And what I really meant was that these have no 'apparent' wings.
The same goes for those bl**dy saucer shaped things with 6 or 8 small gasolene powered fans that some idiots play around with.

Besides, I've heard that the only 'computers' used during the design of the SR-71 was slide-rules. Given the same materials and engine technology, could you design any better today?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2002 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

anthony wrote:
No, they don't have the same level computers, but...

NASA experimented with lifting body designs in the sixties.
(Well, a few enthusiasts at least )

And what I really meant was that these have no 'apparent' wings.
The same goes for those bl**dy saucer shaped things with 6 or 8 small gasolene powered fans that some idiots play around with.

Besides, I've heard that the only 'computers' used during the design of the SR-71 was slide-rules. Given the same materials and engine technology, could you design any better today?


Well, the lifting bodies NASA experimented with in the sixties were not all that manueverable, at least going by their crash record - if I recall correctly, it wasn't until the X-24B, when they did apply some aero codes, that they really got a controllable one.

I do see what you're saying, though, and I think the blended wing/fuselage concept I have in mind will still work (think of it as highly derivative of the X-24B and (unbuilt) X-24C programs).

thoughtfully,
Cateagle

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