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Furry Fysiology

 
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ScottyDM
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a question for Racky, because I remember reading he was involved with SotS.

I ran across the following concept in A Fox's Tale. On page 20:
Quote:
Can't remember the last time she's written me. He unsheathed one claw to open the top of the envelope.

This is of course both impossible and unnecessary because the red fox does NOT have retractable claws. I seem to remember seeing this same factual error in SotS. Might want to fix it.

S-

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I seem to remember reading that Josh wasn't a pureblood fox though I can't remember what other specises he was.
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ScottyDM
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of years ago I seriously considered writing a ZZtS fan-fic staring everyone's favorite villain Marcus Fairchild. There's gotta be a reason for the badness, right?

Good for a short story perhaps, but I'm just not into fan-fics. Far too many ideas of my own.

Styx wrote:
But I seem to remember reading that Josh wasn't a pureblood fox though I can't remember what other specises he was.

Maybe he is, but I don't remember any indication in the story that he was anything other than 100% fox. As to my shout to Racky, I seem to remember that in one of the recently posted SOtS chapters the character of Chris Foxx unsheathed a claw. I'm pretty sure our Mr. Foxx doesn't contain any feline genes... unless of course he's gained them during one of those infamous "dream sequences". Or maybe my memory is bad (we can hope).

In this fandom factual errors seem to beget factual errors. Confused

Pflarrian wrote:
Hope he and Rava are okay, unless I seriously missed something while I was going insane last year...

Dude, next time shoot me an e-mail. I could use a relaxing little trip. We could split the cost of gas. Wink


Mike, it's not so much that the stories become worthless as they age, but it's more of something that's lost to the public. Every once in awhile I'd post something somewhere about ZZtS and post the URL to James' website. Last year I realized all his chapters were MIA. Well, even though the story is unfinished it would have been a huge loss if he hadn't discovered the problem and restored the files.

Now if there is a cost to keeping the stories available, then I can see weeding out the older stories as readership drops off. But as long as your website stays under the storage and monthly bandwidth limits, then why delete stuff?

Scotty

PS: Maybe I'm just cranky because I spent the last four days doing factual research about: critters of the late Cambrian period, the chalk beds of western Kansas, the "bone wars" of the late 19th century, and the theory of flight along with the nature of lift and drag (NASA's got a cool online airfoil simulator). All this so I could create a bit of flash fiction which I was given only seven days to write. It must be a disease with me, or something. Sad

The result should be a more enjoyable story (I hope), but also I've hidden this really massive Easter egg in the story. Due Thursday morning, so I better get back to it.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScottyDM wrote:
Styx wrote:
But I seem to remember reading that Josh wasn't a pureblood fox though I can't remember what other specises he was.

Maybe he is, but I don't remember any indication in the story that he was anything other than 100% fox. As to my shout to Racky, I seem to remember that in one of the recently posted SOtS chapters the character of Chris Foxx unsheathed a claw. I'm pretty sure our Mr. Foxx doesn't contain any feline genes... unless of course he's gained them during one of those infamous "dream sequences". Or maybe my memory is bad (we can hope).


If I remember correctly he was part wolf.

Many clawed animals can sheath their claws to some extend, even though this ability has gotten prominence only among the felines. Even there it is not a guarantee though. Cheetahs for example cannot retract their claws.

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racky raccoon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScottyDM wrote:
This is a question for Racky, because I remember reading he was involved with SotS.

I ran across the following concept in A Fox's Tale. On page 20:
Quote:
Can't remember the last time she's written me. He unsheathed one claw to open the top of the envelope.

This is of course both impossible and unnecessary because the red fox does NOT have retractable claws. I seem to remember seeing this same factual error in SotS. Might want to fix it.

S-


Yeah Chris has this fixation about retractable claws (It was Sabrina In SOLTS). Now there are two things that I can say (nothing with any conviction you must understand)

1) In this universe EVERYONE has retractable claws, this could be a trait that has been breed into all species to avoid any unwanted eye stabbings etc.

2) He uses it as a plot device, I have been asked why do I have people opening doors when obviously they should have a key to the house. Its a way of setting up the scene in his case its a action that sounds nice reminds the readers these are not human and lets face it having claws pop put of your fingers is cool Wink

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Teric
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I understand, with foxes having some distinct feline qualities, they do indeed have at least partially retractable claws.

references:
Quote:
Foxes have characteristics of both dogs and cats. Although a member of the dog family the fox has many similarities to that of the feline. hey have vertical slit eyes and partially retractable claws. Foxes are good tree climbers. They mark territory by scent with urine. A fox also plays with its prey like a cat.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/474581/interesting_facts_about_the_fox.html

Quote:
Two unique characteristics of this fox are its ability to climb and their partially retractable claws.

http://www.msjnha.org/Plants_Animals/Gray_fox.htm

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ScottyDM
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

racky raccoon wrote:
Yeah Chris has this fixation about retractable claws....

In this universe EVERYONE has retractable claws, this could be a trait that has been breed into all species to avoid any unwanted eye stabbings etc.

Its a way of setting up the scene in his case its a action that sounds nice reminds the readers these are not human....

Ahh, okay then. But there are far more effective ways of achieving that last point than this particular device.

Teric wrote:
As far as I understand, with foxes having some distinct feline qualities, they do indeed have at least partially retractable claws.

references:
...
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/474581/interesting_facts_about_the_fox.html

...
http://www.msjnha.org/Plants_Animals/Gray_fox.htm

But the character of Chris Foxx is a red fox morph, not a gray fox morph. At least judging by all the drawings of him. But then according to Racky, all bets are off.

Note the following photos of red fox paws. Their claws hang out far enough that they would not be "razor sharp" nor would they need to be unsheathed to open a letter.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sleepy_Red_Fox.jpg
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adult_fox.JPG
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:More_fox_on_log.jpg

Here's a clear photo of a wild gray fox who's paws are clearly visible. Note that the claws don't protrude nearly as far as they do for the red fox, a reasonable indication that they are partly retractable. Last fall I picked up a young gray fox vixen (probably about 5 months old) who'd had an unhappy meeting with a car. I took plenty of photos, but didn't think to test her claws. However she did have a couple of discrete whiskers on the inside of each of her front wrists, which would probably help with her feeling her way through the dark. I've heard the same is true of red foxes, but I can't prove it.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Gray_Fox_-_Red_Rock_Canyon,_Nevada.jpg

Tygon wrote:
ScottyDM wrote:
Styx wrote:
... Josh wasn't a pureblood fox...


If I remember correctly he was part wolf.

Wolves cannot retract their claws.

Tygon wrote:
Many clawed animals can sheath their claws to some extend, even though this ability has gotten prominence only among the felines.

What other animals? I sure there are some, but my dog cannot retract her claws any more than I can. Nor can my ferrets, or any living rats or mice I've handled. Burrowing animals like badgers (both American and Eurasian) and the common mole have huge claws on their forepaws that hang way out there and seem solidly attached.

I saw a live mole in the wild once. The only reason I saw it is because it was swimming across a stream. It reached the bank and vanished in seconds. They dig really fast.

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racky raccoon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing that may account for Chris Foxx's retractable claws.

We never actually know who his mother was.

He is not part wolf, that I know for sure (he was going to BE a wolf when he was warned off that for confusion with Thomas).

Going onto things that don't add with 'Fysiology' why do both Foxes and Skunks have whiskers....

and raccoons... WHY okay know why but its just odd to me.

Before today (I just looked it up) I though this was another over sight with SOLTS I didn't know they had them.


Oh and yes there are European raccoons for all you people out there that have questioned the fact, One person is responsible though, a guy called Hag he was told by the Nazis (im not makking it up) to increase the fanua of Germany, they escaped from the breeding programe one night after a British air raid blew up the facility.

Great to know and an added bonus of sounding like a cool idea for a film.

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ScottyDM
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a debate over on the Critique Circle forums about the role of research in fiction. The real issue is: Where do we draw the line between fact and fiction? That is, what stuff can we simply make up, and what needs to have the kiss of reality?

Fiction is a lie (or a "creative untruth" if you prefer) and every successful liar knows the very best lies are mostly the truth. And readers of any form of speculative fiction are a funny bunch. For example they will swallow the huge lie that aliens are real and have gotten involved in WW-II, but will choke on the little lie that one can refuel a P51 Mustang on a beach in northern France with five gallons of gas from a jerry can, then take off and fly to the southern coast of England.

This big-lie, many little-truths concept can be seen at work in any successful fantasy novel. For example the big lie might be, "Magic is real," and one of the little truths then becomes, "Magic has limitations and rules--you can't just arbitrarily do any old thing you feel like." The little truths anchors the big lie into an alternate reality and makes the whole believable.

In furry/anthro-fiction the big lie is that, "Morphs are real." To make the alternate reality of the furry world seem real, the author needs to create little truths to support that world. The simplest is to base your morphs on real animals. An alternative to that is to have a reason why your morphs are the way they are, to make that reason seem plausible, and to be self-consistent throughout your story.

A good example is Philip J Eggerding's (a.k.a. Cirrel) storyworld of Wilderhom. His morphs are genetically engineered and many of his morph species are a blend of familiar animals with human. For example Kemsa is a "felocanid". So if she wants to wag her tail and unsheath a claw, then it would at least seem plausible. Note that I don't recall her ever wagging her tail, but it wouldn't seem crazy if she did.

The Sabrinaverse (of which Zig Zig is a part) is quite different. There is no explanation for how this world came to be, species operate more like races than species, and functionally they're fully human with only an animal veneer. Part of the problem is that characters are only defined in generic terms. Sabrina is a skunk, but there are many species of skunk in reality and her fur pattern is nothing like any living skunk. She seems to be based off of Pepe LaPew. That is, Sabrina is a Mephitis cartoonis. Other species are simply a squirrel or a wolf, but again there are multiple species of squirrels and wolves. In some ways Zig Zag makes sense because she is a fantasy species so she's got some backstory and an explanation of how she came to be. That isn't to say the Sabrinaverse cannot have many little truths.

The Sabrinaverse was born of art and webcomics, and visual media have different requirements than literature. Almost all characters in comic strips never change their clothes. This device is used to make it easier for the readers to tell one character from another. If your comic strip features morphs you almost have to have visual shortcuts like head hair (with long hair for the females and short for the males) and human-style breasts. These limitations are completely unnecessary in a story. That doesn't mean you can't use them in a story, but that you aren't forced to use them. You also need a certain visual style, which is probably why Pepe and Sabrina have white faces and bellies. It's easier to draw (and see) expression on a white face than on a black. Pepe's single stripe makes him a hog-nosed skunk, except his face is more like that of a common skunk, so that makes him "none of the above" and therefore a Mephitis cartoonis. Wink

We could poke fun at Warner Bros, but their creation is understandable and not completely whack. And it's no secret that EWS got his start redrawing Warner Bros characters (and others from popular media). The only real complaint I have is that far too many creative people in this fandom seem either too lazy or too stupid to do any research. For example many people keep the common skunk Mephitis mephitis as a pet, and so there are hundreds and hundreds of photos of skunks online. And there's plenty of information such as skunks have a plantigrade stance and their claws don't retract. Also they have some interesting dietary quirks, e.g. several "skunks as pets" websites state they love raw chilies. I've never seen or read that Sabrina, Clarence, or any of their relatives like raw chilies.

Sadly, I think Josh was mislead by Chris' claw unsheathing error and copied that error into his own story.

Scotty

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Silverstreak
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Urgh, not this crap again... Can't we just accept the fact that furry characters are purely fantasy and therefore bound by the will of their creators? If they want a fox to have retractable claws, so be it... gosh.
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racky raccoon
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And so as I walk into the sunset I state one thing

A can of worms has been opened: As for the P-51 I was tempted to put that in my story but thought against it.

Silverstreak I understand where you are coming from on the whole 'this is not real angle' but I love these kinds of discussions, as long as they stay that way, as a NON stupid writer (thanks Scotty Wink ) I have already learnt something today and something that has been put in the story just before I came back to write this.

If we do stay in a "this is not real" mode then we as writers and the like DO get lazy and we do make stupid mistakes and I mean some total Gaffs when it comes to writing stories.

We have a great fandom with its basis in the internet the biggest library in all existence, why don't we use it to fill our stories with information....

Dumb readers..... ok Ill put that nicer; readers who aren't up to the same level of intellect the writer is (it does work both ways Scotty had the other side of the coin) if I wrote something with the intent to teach the reader something (and its happened i ve had some REAL shocking emails telling me they didn't understand the work) and that happens, it leaves you with a tough choice, do you drop the level so you keep the readers or do you carry on in the knowledge this is losing you the one thing you want in the first place ..... all together now!

PEOPLE READING THE STORY

I will say this:

The domesticated Russian Fox does wag its tail and even barks like a dog, and its actually the Russian version of the Red Fox. So with genetics and selective breeding anything is possible.

Maybe one day you all will get five digits like us Raccoons Wink

Twisted Evil

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Xaqtly
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I don't think there's any "right answer" to this, since anything written about fictional characters is subject to the whim of the author. It seems like for the most part a lot of furry authors tend to stick with the traits of the animals their characters are based on, but there's no hard and fast rule about that.

I mean look at all the 19-foot tall wolf/bird/dragon hybrids with 7 sets of wings, 82 tails and 37 legs out there. If you're willing to accept that, then something like a fox popping a claw shouldn't be a big deal. Very Happy

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Teric
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xaqtly wrote:
I mean look at all the 19-foot tall wolf/bird/dragon hybrids with 7 sets of wings, 82 tails and 37 legs out there. If you're willing to accept that, then something like a fox popping a claw shouldn't be a big deal. Very Happy


Haha well spoken, Xaq!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every world has their own rules.(Like Micky Mouse, every char has gloves and nobody knows why) If Chris say that the furs can unsheathe their claws so be it.
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ScottyDM
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yaaay! The Chris Yost apologists have come out.

You are correct, you can write anything you want. But every time you write that your "cat" character barks, or that your "dog" uses his prehensile tail to pickup something--and you offer nothing to warn the reader your characters are not the cats and dogs they are familiar with--then you lose a few readers. Do that enough times and you'll have very few readers left.

Dragons really can be anything. The key is to describe your character then NOT CHANGE HER. That is, be self consistent. Seven pairs of wings for a fantasy creature is not a problem as long as they keep seven pairs of wings throughout the story. Unless of course you have a reasonably probable reason for changing them, such as they have 7 pairs of baby wings in larval form, pupate, then are reborn with only 3 pairs of adult wings.

But foxes are not fantasy creatures, so when you write "fox" then readers have a certain expectation for the character. Anthro-foxes should be a blend of fox and human--not fox, human, and random attributes. If you need to deviate from the standard then at least drop hints that your fox's great grandmother was a wyvern or whatever. Or invent a species as Philip Eggerding has done. For example you could create a "feli-vulpine" or something. Of course this requires some planning.

Someone above expressed the idea that he thought all mammals had claws that at least partly retracted. That person must not be a pet owner, or at least never owned anything other than cats. Another expressed surprise that many mammals, not just felines, have whiskers. Ditto. My advice when writing would be to either: stick to the one or two animals you know, do a little research first (at least use Google images and maybe YouTube for basic behaviors), or invent something unique including its species name.

A tiny bit of thought and planning when creating characters isn't that hard. If you're writing and editing the the whole story before you show it to the public, then you have the liberty to wing it then fix things later. But with a serial story planning is pretty much a requirement if you want to avoid looking stupid.

A master at creating "fantasy" anthros that actually work, yet are based on familiar animals that we've all heard of, is Bernard Doove. For character creation follow the examples of Eggerding or Doove, not Yost.

Scotty

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