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Cateagle
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, regarding the furniture, I'm reminded of the bit concerning Gustavus Aldolphus and chairs in Eric Flint's 1632; specifically, Chapter 6.
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SkunkFox
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*snickers* it only goes down hill from here, eh Shirh? Twisted Evil
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Nameless
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was quite a fight scene. Literary bullet time anyone?
It felt a little over the top for me, but then I can't really say that I have the experience to judge what a fur overdosing on adrenaline (and alcohol) really can do...

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Galadrion
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nameless wrote:
That was quite a fight scene. Literary bullet time anyone?
It felt a little over the top for me, but then I can't really say that I have the experience to judge what a fur overdosing on adrenaline (and alcohol) really can do...

Trust me, it's not really out of the question. As I've said, been there, done that (though not against those odds). Besides, if a 140-pound, out-of-shape mother can throw aside a piano (as has been documented), what could a 280-pound, athletically-trained feline hybrid do under that sort of stress? I actually think that the Knights got off lightly.

Take, for example, that fur whose testicle(s) Dr. Khan ruptured. The fellow was actually lucky not to have his pelvis broken - it's been known to happen. Or the ones whose faces interupted the path of Khan's arms. Fractured or shattered thermomandibular joints, noses, and cheekbones could easily have resulted, as well as spinal injuries and concussions - a person who simply trips and falls on a concrete or tarmack surface and concuss themselves relatively easily; someone who makes a cranial landing after an impact like that might have skull fractures, either simple or compound, to worry about.

The idiot with the gun? Let's look at the legal situation. It was after dark, Khan was outnumbered, shots had been fired, Khan had reason to fear for both his own life and the lives of possible bystanders. Under "reasonable defense" statutes, Khan had the legal right to go for immediate, life-threatening attacks - such as, perhaps, a full-strength blow to the trachea. Bear in mind that he'd already used attacks which would indicate he had the strength to collapse his opponent's rib cage - imagine the effect of a shot at that power hitting someone in the throat.

And the fox with the switchblade? Total idiot. He had no chance - he should have turned and run while Khan dealt with the gun-wielding moron. Instead, after seeing seven other furs go down without inflicting any damage, he still tried to attack. <Shakes head> The fact that none of Khan's attackers, especially this idiot, died, argues strongly that Khan is no mad killer. That, quite frankly, is the part I have the hardest time believing - and it's not that out-of-the-question.

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Wolf Starchaser
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Galadrion wrote:
Under "reasonable defense" statutes, Khan had the legal right to go for immediate, life-threatening attacks - such as, perhaps, a full-strength blow to the trachea. Bear in mind that he'd already used attacks which would indicate he had the strength to collapse his opponent's rib cage - imagine the effect of a shot at that power hitting someone in the throat.


Hmmm. Is it possible to decapitate with blunt force? If not, the neck vertebrae would like as not be as nearly pulverized as a single impact from a mortal, flesh-and-blood opponent could manage.

I'm not entirely sure why, at this point, Khan didn't kill; possibilities that have crossed my mind include his Doctor's training, or martial arts training with the philosophy that any situation should be met with the minimum amount of force necessary. Be that as it may, it's probably a good thing he didn't. If he had, not only would it have been negative press for the clinic, but Khan would've been targeted by the Knights for immediate elimination by any means available, including high explosives and/or artillery. It'd probably not be that hard for a few purists to get their paws on a mortar and several rounds, or some similar piece of somewhat dated military hardware.

Just my $.02. Great work, once again, Shirh, and I find myself awaiting the next installment eagerly. Cool

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Shirh Khan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nameless wrote:

That was quite a fight scene. Literary bullet time anyone?
It felt a little over the top for me, but then I can't really say that I have the experience to judge what a fur overdosing on adrenaline (and alcohol) really can do...




Actually, Nameless, it's *not* that hard for one person to successfully take on multiple opponents, especially not if they're all coming from one direction, and especially if one is trained in some form of unarmed combat, and one's opponents are not. There are many martial arts- of which I believe Aikido is the top, in this instance, where the martial art specifically allows for one to be able to deal with multiple opponents at once. I will say, however, if one *is not* trained in unarmed combat, *and* his opponents are of a particularly ruthless type, that one could very easily end up needing intensive medical care.

And then, you have to take into account Khan's supernormal strength, as well as his physical conditioning-- one with his skills and abilities could very well be something of a one person platoon, under the right circumstances; a few fairly unorganized Knights would hardly be worth much effort in that frame of reference.

And the fight scene itself was very explicitly choreographed- I spent about a good ten hours, collectively, going over every aspect of that scene. There is nothing in that particular fight scene that, given the approaches and positioning of one's opponents, that even a poorly trained martial arts practitioner couldn't accomplish. Everything was very plausible, and there was a great emphasis on form and impact, rather than on flash and spectacle.

Of course, one has to realize that, to the *average* person, such a fight would tend to go very wrong, and that the one defending themself would usually be the one in need of medical care. But again, what we've seen in this scene is not anywhere near the realm of impossible.



Galadrion wrote:

No, I don't think Dr. Elijah is going to slip back into a suicide spiral. For someone of this type, it takes feelings of helplessness to trigger that, and at the moment (thanks to that ambush), he knows unequivocally that he's not helpless - out of control, yes, and that's merely feeding back into the cycle, but not helpless. In a way, that loss of control is going to make it harder for him to break the cycle - his loss of control put him into a bad situation, which caused him to lose further control, which feeds back around, but that's trapped him into nearly a berserker rage, not a suicide spiral. And this, at least, has a built-in limitation - he will keep going until he drops from exhaustion or self-inflicted damage, but he can't keep it up indefinitely.




You've got it in one- Khan is very much at a loss of control; he *does* have more than a few of the same feelings and thoughts that lead him to try to commit suicide, but this time, he's tempered not only by the incredible sense of shame and guilt over not succeeding in his goal the last time, but by a need to punish himself for a great many things that have happened either to him, or as a result of him-- this you'll see in chapter 46b, and that should post in about four weeks; the "in-between" chapter will post in two, and is already done and edited- you'll just have to wait for it. Twisted Evil

Khan's explosion-- or implosion-- will be more subdued this time, more subtle- but it will be there, nonetheless; in this case, it is a comparision of a 50 kTon nuke (his last breakdown) which wipes out a small town, verses a canister of *airborn* Ebola (this breakdown) which wipes out the town still, but causes little *visible* destruction. Over the years, Khan has held in the great reserve of all those negative feelings that most normal folks are supposed to get rid of- by crying, by shouting, by being angry, by beating on something (or some *one*, in specialized cases)- and it has poisoned his soul, for lack of a better word. His attempt at suicide was, in a sense, an attempt to rid himself of the burden of withholding those pent up emotions, rather than dealing with them; his loss of control now is his psyche's way ot informing him that he no longer has a choice in the matter. What can happen here isn't something that can be fixed with just a simple talk; much time, and much effort- on the part of Khan, those around him, and s/he who he turns to for theraputic help-will be required. As a result, few will be left unscathed.....


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Nameless
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not so much the fact that Khan wins the fight, but how much control of it he seems to have. And that he manages to dispatch them so quickly without inflicting more really serious harm to (or killing) one of them.
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Shirh Khan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:34 am    Post subject: Fighting... Reply with quote

Nameless wrote:

It's not so much the fact that Khan wins the fight, but how much control of it he seems to have. And that he manages to dispatch them so quickly without inflicting more really serious harm to (or killing) one of them.




I can answer that easily enough.

First and foremost, the great majority of the time, when someone gets involved in a fight, they aren't aiming to kill- they're usually much more interested in injury and humiliation- after all, when it comes down to it, fighting is really just a grandiose manner of trying to establish authority and superiority. Even when fighting for one's life, when fighting in defense of self, the basic need to win is evident. Sometimes, winning has the side benefit of avoiding pain and suffering, and of being able to continue living one's life, but there is still the mental "you did it! you beat the odds, you won the fight" thought running through one's mind.

Now, in Khan's case, initially, he was fighting specifically to cut down the numbers of his opponents- strike first, strike hard, and hopefully take them out of the fight, so he could focus on others who might be more dangerous. That's actually the best way to consider to fight multiple opponents- don't look for prolonged engagement to any one person, when you have many to avoid- take each out as quickly as possible, and move on to the next.

Once the violence escalated, Khan became more cruel and sadistic about his fighting style-

From the Depths to the Heights wrote:

Khan's thoughts were racing, his sense of impending depression long gone, and replaced with a self-righteous fury. How dare these idiots presume to have the right to try to enforce their bigotry on him? How dare they attempt to judge him by his parentage? How dare they shoot at him, as though he were a lesser animal, as though his life wasn't equal to their own? How DARE they think themselves to be the wrath of the Creator?
He would show them, what the meaning of wrath really was.


-and he fought in part to save his own life, but largely to show his attackers, to prove to them, that he could fight dirtily, too, that he was capable of causing them pain the likes of which they probably weren't familiar with, and do so with an ease that they'd never personally know. In that regard, he wasn't trying to kill, because that wouldn't have imparted the "lesson", as it were, that he was trying to teach them. He was specifically intending to inflict grievous injury, to "show them what the meaning of wrath really was".

It is rare that the average being fights to kill; rather, most of the time, fights are about- as mentioned before- authority and superiority. In that train of thought, it is difficult to establish your authority and superiority over an opponent who is dead. One might try to counter that, by talking about war being about killing- it isn't. Why would you go to war, and leave any of the enemy alive (meaning, non-combatants, generally) if not to serve them a reminder that you fought better than they, and that you have dominated them? Fighting for the sole purpose of killing isn't war- that's genocide, and that isn't fighting- that's (mass) murder.

That is the best explanation I have for you, right now. I hope that satisfies your question *smile*




-Shirh Khan

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Kelly McAllen
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was quit the chapter. Much has been said about the fight, and I think I was covered from all sides. He is getting closer to a fall all the time. I dought it will take much more. Then again I have felt this way before. And that brings up a question. We watched Khan crash once already. We also saw him slam a lid on the beginning of the healing prosess. I forget just what he said to himself, but it sounded like his guilt won't let him start. My question is; Does his knowlage in the fighting arts keep him from exceping that he can't protect everyone? Is his training making him think that everyone he comes across is now his responcibilty?

Another thing I wounder about, is weather the racoon detective has purest feelings? Not to the extent of her brother. She feels mixed bloods have as much right to live as pure, but they should keep to themself. She states she would never date Khan. I felt what she ment was she wouldn't date him because of his breading, not because she isn't interested in him.

Kelly McAllen

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wolf Starchaser wrote:
Hmmm. Is it possible to decapitate with blunt force? If not, the neck vertebrae would like as not be as nearly pulverized as a single impact from a mortal, flesh-and-blood opponent could manage.


Yes, it is possible to relieve a fur of his head with blunt trauma. The force necessary to do so, though, is extremely difficult for a anthropomorphic-sized being to produce. More common methods include industrial accidents, injudicious train-spotting, and leaps or falls from great heights in close proximity to objects projecting from a structure.

The results are the stuff that an EMT's nightmares are made of.

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Wolf Starchaser
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concolor wrote:
The results are the stuff that an EMT's nightmares are made of.


I'd imagine so. Shocked

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Fighting... Reply with quote

Shirh Khan wrote:
It is rare that the average being fights to kill; rather, most of the time, fights are about- as mentioned before- authority and superiority. In that train of thought, it is difficult to establish your authority and superiority over an opponent who is dead. One might try to counter that, by talking about war being about killing- it isn't. Why would you go to war, and leave any of the enemy alive (meaning, non-combatants, generally) if not to serve them a reminder that you fought better than they, and that you have dominated them? Fighting for the sole purpose of killing isn't war- that's genocide, and that isn't fighting- that's (mass) murder.

Interesting thought. Sometimes in a fight it is not about dominating/defeating your enemy but simply trying to survive the fight. The following excerpt is from http://www.lonestarrifle.com/Custer.html, a website arguing that poorly disciplined troops was a significant factor in the 7th Calvary's defeat at the Battle of Little Bighorn:

It is a perplexing incongruity in a citizen-soldier army, but the vast majority of soldiers, when the time comes to kill, become conscientious objectors. It has been asserted that man is essentially a killer at heart, yet recent studies have found evidence quite to the contrary. Men, soldiers or not, simply have an innate resistance to killing. It is fairly well-established that when faced with danger, a man will usually respond by fight or flight. New studies, however, have argued that there are two other likely possibilities: posture or submit.

It is the posturing that has increased with the introduction of firearms to the battlefield. It is almost impossible for a man to shirk battle when at arm's length from an enemy wielding sword or pike, but it is easier to remain aloof at rifle range. One has other options besides immediate fight or flight. The Rebel yell or the Union "hurrah," for example, were simply means to bolster one's courage while trying to frighten the enemy. The loud crack of the rifle also served the same purpose, filling a deep-seated need to posture--i.e., to put on a good show and scare the enemy, yet still leave the shooter far away from a hand-to-hand death struggle. In reality, those good shows were often harmless, with the rifleman firing over the heads of the enemy.

Firing high has always been a problem, and it apparently does not stem solely from inadequate training. Soldiers and military historians from Ardant du Picq to Paddy Griffith and John Keegan have commented on the phenomenon. In Civil War battles, 200 to 1,000 men might stand, blasting away at the opposing lines at 30 to 50 yards distance, and only hit one or two men per minute. Commanders constantly admonished their troops to aim low and give the enemy a blizzard at his shins. Regardless, the men continued to fire high--sometimes intentionally, sometimes without consciously knowing what they were doing.

Indeed, it was at times even difficult to get soldiers to fire at all. After the Battle of Gettysburg, 24,000 loaded muskets were recovered; only 12,000 of them had been loaded more than once, 6,000 had from three to 10 rounds in the barrel, and one weapon had been loaded 23 times! One conclusion is that a great number of soldiers are simply posturing and not trying to kill the enemy.


I think that the majority of people are more inclined to avoid combat of any sort, and if given the opportunity to flee, will do so. If they cannot escape the battle, like conscripts and soldiers who have little experience (and perhaps a few veterans, as well), they will avoid direct combat as little as possible. If that means not shooting so that the enemy will not be inclined to shoot back, they'll avoid doing so. There is more than one motivation for not killing anyone.

(My apologies for the long and windy post, and especially to Shirh Khan if the post is way off topic; I couldn't pass up a discussion on martial philosophy)
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny - everyone else talks about the fight between Khan and the Better-Off-Dead.

I just want to take that baseball bat to Adelle and do EXACTLY what she did to JillAnne. And don't tell me it wouldn't solve anything - she'd never be able to do it to anyone else ever again. Cowardly little #$%#@...

I am almost literally shaking with rage at that THING that killed JillAnne.

And don't get me started on Elijah Khan. I'm losing patience with that fur. I'd risk the inevitable injuries just to give him a piece of my mind. (Hey I faced down Karl once, why not Khan? Laughing)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinsfire wrote:
And don't get me started on Elijah Khan. I'm losing patience with that fur. I'd risk the inevitable injuries just to give him a piece of my mind. (Hey I faced down Karl once, why not Khan? Laughing)


I get the feeling we'll be seeing the younger Khan brother soon, and I think he'll have a few things to say at his sibling.


*edit: Punctuation good. NyQuil bad. Cold worse.* #morning

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:50 am    Post subject: "Oh, Yeah?" Reply with quote

Kinsfire wrote:
And don't get me started on Elijah Khan. I'm losing patience with that fur. I'd risk the inevitable injuries just to give him a piece of my mind. (Hey I faced down Karl once, why not Khan? Laughing)




Ya know, Kinsfire, I'll take you up on that! *grin* I'd like to see that in writing, whenever you have the time.... *grin*


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