Planetfurry BBS

Shoobie · Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:28 pm Post subject: Dealing with Time

What do you think are the necissary effects of a group of people (a government or society) that has existed for a very long period of time? What do you think must be required of, or happen to, a society that has existed for more than two thousand years?

What kinds of things would expect?

Do you think that, as technology advances, the ability for a society to remain unchanged longer, becomes greater?

Do you think that the length of time that a society exists must correlate to advances in that society's technology/natural-understanding/physical-understanding?

For reference, humans have existed more-or-less as a whole for about 4-5 thousand years. The longest a single society has lasted intact is roughly only a thousand years.

So what happens when a society reaches "birthday 23,000"?

Tygon · Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject:

I think the only way a society can exist for a longer time (meaning several thousand years) is by actively avoiding and working against any sort of changes. Otherwise the society will change, maybe not violently like through wars but gradually until it eventually is nothing like the one it started out as.

I think the Imperium of Mankind from the Warhammer 40.000 Universe is a good example for that. It survived over 10.000 years because changes and anything that could invluence the Imperium on a major scale like contact to non-humans (read: aliens) are forbidden.

Shoobie · Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:52 pm Post subject:

Personally, given the advances in technology, and the ability of people to spread out beyond the local planet (for sci-fi), I think a society should be able to remain relatively unchanged as a whole for a good while...maybe as much as 5-6 thousand years.

Technology has a habit of leveling off at various stages, and given the incredible advances of a society, the length of time at which that technology can remain relatively the same, can be much longer. The same goes for medicine, religion, and especially social customs.

Tygon · Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject:

I have to disagree. Advances in technology are a reason for a society to change. Just look at how much the advances in computers have changed the world already. Other advances as they are known from sci-fi would cause even more massive changes.

To remain unchanged a soiety must actively seek not to change, and that pretty much works only with isolating themselves as much as possible so "ailen" idea can't interfere with their way of living and not allowing technologies to advance.

Nameless · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:42 am Post subject:

Any technological advance will change a society. Just think about this: Historians may one day say that (whatever they call our current culture) lasted from the end of the Second World War until 20xx. But if you look at it a little more closely, you will find that there are huge differences between our current society and the one of 50 years ago.

Spreading out to different planets, ... will also change the society (a society that is spread across several planets is different from one that is only on one planet). Also there will be differences between different planets / regions / ... as they will have different living standards, require different techniques for survival, ...
Technology can help here in some respects (terraform all planets to have exactly the same climate), but more likely it will be adapted to local conditions rather than the other way around.

As Tygon said, for a society not to change, you need someone (an organisation, not a single person (unless he is an imortal)) to keep it from changing. The most effective means to keep a society from changing are related to religion. You do the same "rituals" all the time, you do what your ancestors did, ... because they were "right", they were given by god, ...

kodayu · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Dealing with Time

Nameless · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Dealing with Time

starslayer · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:33 am Post subject:

How long did the Japanese stay the same with almost no out side influence? I could be wrong but I would say that their society did not change much until the US forced them to open their borders to trade. And they were technologically advanced.

Nameless · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject:

Shoobie · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject:

Nameless · Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:28 pm Post subject:

kodayu · Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject:

Shoobie · Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject:

Although I'm prepared to go into about 6 different tangents on this topic right now, I'll just pick one for starters...

Generations.

A conservative human "generation" lasts about 25 years. The average human lifespan is now up to about 80 years.

Now lets say you have a race of people who typically live 300 years on average. We could roughly say that since they live 3.75 times longer, that their generation COULD be 3.75 times as long (about 95 years).

This would mean that in a thousand years, for humans, you'd have 40 generations. For those living 300 years, you'd only have 10.

Then lets consider that, if you live 300 years, how much time does one spend in the different phases of life? For instance, lets assume that you spend the same amount of time as humans growing to adulthood, (about 18-25 years). And let's assume that you only begin to reach what we would call "old age" at past 240-250 years of age, or later. So essentially, you have a race that has a "productive period" of life spanning about 230-225 years. So you could considerable increase the "generation" span for that race.

Then what?

Tygon · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:23 am Post subject:

In such a case I think the changing of a society would indeed slow down. So far I thought we were taking actual humans as example.

However, I still stand with my statement that unless a society actively seeks to remain as it is it WILL change. Increased lifespan would slow it down, yes, mostly because as people grow older they are less and less willing to change. But even within a generation a society can change notably. Take Germany for example. I am going to turn 25 this year so I have spend a generation here and I have seen change. Like all first and second world counties it changed as technology changed but not only that. In the 90s we have seen a massive increase of immigrants to Germany and with them and the culture they brough with them Germany changed. I don't know if it changed for the better but that is my personal opinion and doesn't matter here.

What I mean to say, things happen that MAKE a society change unless they are actively worked against. Longer generations means that there is more time for these events to occur.

kodayu · Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:07 pm Post subject:

Over all, I agree with Tygon.
Of yourse, a longer generation span will slow down changes in a society, especially as single individuals are much less willing to change their lifestyle or to adapt to new situations. We are much more flexible when we are young and the older we get the less we are willing to adapt to new situations (unfortunately). Of course, I don't know if that's just a symptom of age in general, or maybe if it is a general princible that an individual will begin to neglect sensations or new experiences in order to preserve its memory from overflowing (that would be a subject for cognitive/perceptive psychology).
If it's the first, then this society would change with similar speed as ours, because this species only has a very short period of actual aging in comparison to its lifespan. If you would rather opt for the second explanation then of course, the development of this species would slow down considerably, because this society would have relatively few young members which were still able (and willing) to explore new possibilities. So basically the change of the society would slow down considerably, at least in all matters that affect its hierarchy and its general "modus operandi". Of course, changes throughout technology would not still occur.
Maybe there are other possible explanations I did not think of...